Vendor Trashing

[hill]

While 99% of you have never been in the business of satisfying customers with demands of service and parts like you was dealing with a five year old Toyota vs a fourty year old rarity . Please remember I or anyone else can  ask for a post to be removed from any site unless proven true. The problem with trashing vendors is that a customer or a competitor? If the site refuses to remove it  I can sue and close down the site. This is a extremely knowledgeable site I hate to see it shut down.

Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"

[J. Huber]

I just think its not becoming of us a group to trash anyone -- save the few blatant crooks that defy all morality. This site is more or less based on experience -- some have been in the game a long time and thus have had a variety of ownership experiences -- good and not so good. Others are new to it all -- and will need to experience things for themselves. As a group we help where we can. When a question comes up and/or we want to share an experience -- we chime in.

Here is where responsibility and civility need to coexist. Its always helpful to tell others of good experiences -- and also important sometimes to mention the bad ones. Tell us the experience and give us facts. However, discussing experiences is not the same as judging people. We need to be above that -- because once we start "trashing" a vendor or anyone else for that matter -- we have crossed a dangerous line. Thats all.

James
63 230SL

[Peter van Es]

This subject has been debated at length in other posts. Moderators will remove or edit posts that are untrue, libelous or do not adhere to common decency. Vendor "trashing" is something that we do not condone, and I do not think that has been happening here.

Some on the Board believe that sharing experiences with vendors, especially those that operate solely through the internet and are sometimes less "businesslike" than we might hope for based on the (relative) anonimity it affords them is of value to the membership of this group.

Some on the Board feel that no vendor experiences should be discussed here at all. Sunday the 27th of April 2008 the Board will have a discussion on this topic, and how we will deal with it formally. The outcome will be made public.

In the mean time we have already created a separate forum for Vendor experiences.

Peter


1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.

[bpossel]

What about having our own "vendor feedback" rating page, similar to eBay?
Keep it professional, and objective!
Bob

bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320

[J. Huber]

quote:Originally posted by vanesp

This subject has been debated at length in other posts. Moderators will remove or edit posts that are untrue, libelous or do not adhere to common decency. Vendor "trashing" is someting that we do not condone, and I do not think that has been happening here.

Peter

1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.

Well, the other threads were so much fun, I thought I'd start it all over again!  :mrgreen:  Actually, mine was a just a general sermon on how things should be (not that they aren't). Kind of a pep talk.

I trust the Board to do what's best for the group -- and I also trust the moderators to "moderate" when needed. You have all done a fantastic job and I am grateful.

James
63 230SL

[waqas]

quote:Originally posted by bpossel

What about having our own "vendor feedback" rating page, similar to eBay?

I have to disagree with this. 99% of the negative feedback has been about ebay sellers. Ebay already has a feedback system that should be used by the parties involved. If people are not using that system, why dump them here? (where only we can see it?)

No one has had any major negative comments about the non-ebay vendors.  The occasional careless/stray comments that we currently see (which is not a major problem- YET) will very quickly devolve into careless trashing (or worse, "gotcha" gripes) for no good reason, in such a rating system.

Let's stick to talking about how to improve and care for our cars, and leave the "trashing" for other lesser forums. Indeed, if there are specific problems with a vendor, by all means discuss it under the "vendor experience" forum. This way, everyone can chime in to address that specific problem. However, I feel uneasy about even this approach.

In summary: legal ramifications aside, a rating system would be incompatible with the spirit of this group. We are not a lobby group.

Just my 2 cents.

Waqas in Austin, Texas

[jacovdw]

I have been following this topic and other related topics with interest. I have to add that I strongly disagree with this as well.

There is no place for a rating system on this site. While it is fine to warn others about a bad experience, I feel that it is inappropriate to dissect such a bad experience ad infinitum.

Yes, it is a fact of life that there are good and bad vendors out there. Disputes with vendors does not belong on this site as it has nothing to do with preserving our cars.

I have had bad experiences with dealers here in my own country, the simple solution is not to do business with them anymore.

Lets leave the dirty laundry far away from this resourceful site and not expose ourselves to legal issues.



Jaco van der Walt
1964 w113 230sl
1975 w114 230.6

[psmith]

James,

Very well put.  You're a gentleman and a scholar  

Pete S.

[bpossel]

You guys all have good points!
I think we have already discussed this topic too much!
Lets go back to "car talk".
Hope y'all have a great weekend and get out in your Pagodas!
I think I will go out in my garage and sit with all the boxes of parts for my car and hold the steering wheel and dream...
Bob

bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320

[Raymond]

If it's true, it's not libel.  But restraint and a careful choice of words is important.  When a temper is flaring, is not the time to be broadcasting your thoughts to a worldwide audience.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[mdsalemi]

Hey, I'm not an attorney but have spoken with several on the subject.

Libel is one of the most difficult civil issues to try and win.  Without clear, demonstrable quantifiable damages as well, almost impossible.

Even hiring an attorney to pursue this, particularly in a place not in your jurisdiction, would cost $10,000--generally up front.  That's the start.

Who would do this?  There's all this talk of "liability" and legal threats from vendors, but sorry, I just see this as chest thumping with little basis in reality.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[glennard]

Mike, A case of PPP- Pure Pagoda Persiflage.  Takes one's mind off getting a fast start-first cylinder-on a cold morning.  A momentary diversion from CSV, linkage, solenoid, filters, etc!

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Hey, I'm not an attorney but have spoken with several on the subject.

Libel is one of the most difficult civil issues to try and win.  Without clear, demonstrable quantifiable damages as well, almost impossible.

Even hiring an attorney to pursue this, particularly in a place not in your jurisdiction, would cost $10,000--generally up front.  That's the start.

Who would do this?  There's all this talk of "liability" and legal threats from vendors, but sorry, I just see this as chest thumping with little basis in reality.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[peterinco]

I have to say I'm surprised by this.  I'm a customer satisfaction expert--marketing research director, consultant, and frequent writer and reader on the subject.  Also, while not a lawyer, I've had graduate level law courses, worked for the FBI, etc.

First, the issue of libel is pretty out there--there's tons of stuff all over the web and everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether only a little true or not.  There are a lot of sites that deal with customer complaints.  Everyone's also entitled to satisfaction, whatever form that might take.  Frankly, I read this thread hoping to read some vendor trashing--it is informative and, of course, also reflective of the person doing the complaining...  Yeah, I wanted to read that much more than technical car talk.

I do like this forum (I've been on and off for many years) and I like that people are polite and respectful.  I don't think expressing a bad experience, and sharing it, even with a litle emotion, is wrong.

 - Peter

[paulr]

HEAR HEAR...!!

quote:Originally posted by peterinco


I do like this forum (I've been on and off for many years) and I like that people are polite and respectful.  I don't think expressing a bad experience, and sharing it, even with a litle emotion, is wrong.

 - Peter

paulr
1970 280 SL

[hill]

quote:Originally posted by hill

While 99% of you have never been in the business of satisfying customers with demands of service and parts like you was dealing with a five year old Toyota vs a fourty year old rarity . Please remember I or anyone else can  ask for a post to be removed from any site unless proven true. The problem with trashing vendors is that a customer or a competitor? If the site refuses to remove it  I can sue and close down the site. This is a extremely knowledgeable site I hate to see it shut down.

Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"

Ok my rant is over.

Is there any way I can support this site without giving paypal all of my CC#s etc... I have not used my check book in a while and only have 23 checks left before I sail to the carib.


Happy Benzing
Darryl, Hill
350 SL4.5 #60
1967 250sl "California"

[Tom]

Darryl,

The site is free for all to use and is run by volunteers that are not paid for their services to the club.  Some choose to become active members by paying dues that go toward the cost of publications and mailings as well as paying the hosting fees to run this site.

Dues are optional but for those that elect to become active members by paying dues receive publications of Pagoda World and Pagoda Notes.  If you would like to support the site, you can send your $30 in annual dues to:

SL113.org
PO Box 7174
Alexandria, Va 22307

Thanks,


1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1970 280sl Unrestored Beach Driver with a touch of rust

[TR]

I've found Bob to be a real gentleman; very knowledgeable and quite helpful.  Good guy.

quote:Originally posted by Benz Dr.

I've also been burned by ATVM, although I did manage to get a refund. As in your example, my items were also carelessly tossed in a box, in this case a pair of 113 Euro lights. They arrived with shattered glass. It was just as well because the condition of the lights were way worse than he had described on the phone and in the ebay pictures. They had been insured with the USPS for $750 each, I paid $500 for the pair. I sent them back with signed paperwork attesting to the damage, he filed the claim with USPS and my card was credited. Took about a month and over a dozen phone calls to put that in place. Removed by Moderator
Bob in Portland

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

Edited by - Admin, 28 April 2008

[Mark280SL]

I've really wanted to avoid jumping into this and the previous long thread dealing with a particular vendor but have now decided to make a comment. The point of this group (at least I thought it was) is to share information and experiences about these cars we all love. What is now happening is Negative for everyone.

I think there are a lot of smart well informed people here, we ought to be able to agree on how to deal with issues like this without getting into these destructive time wasting exercises where people rant and rave on their side of the issue. I was hoping the last thread was enough but somebody had to go and start this again and worse yet include misguided "legal" threat type comments about closing the site down which does nothing whatsoever but get people bent out of shape and waste time on the wrong things.

Can everybody please cool it and get back to what we are here for? I think along the way there have been some suggestions about having some sort of rating system like ebay where people can make some kind of comment on their experiences with a vendor, I think it is fair, reasonable, and certainly APPROPRIATE for this group to have a place where people can air a concern about a vendor and let others know of their experience. On the other hand it should not be a long rant that turns into a name calling situation, it needs to be an objective FACT BASED comment or rating that is brief and not emotional. The reality is the internet is loaded with sites that have people commenting on products and vendors, if you think you can surpress this kind of thing and not allow people to make comments you are not in touch with what is happening all over the internet, this can be done, it just needs to be done with fairness and objectivity. I also think those wanting to post a comment or rating on a vendor should be paying members so there is at least some manner of identifying them so you don't have people hiding behind false identies making bogus comments.

I think at the same time vendors who are members of this site need to observe similar guidelines, some of the endless posts made by some vendors here responding and chest thumping are just a waste of their time, everybody else's time, and nothing but argumentative. We all know that.

I think those in a leadership role here and I assume that is the board of Directors should come up with a plan for fairly allowing people to comment on vendor experiences, it should be well considered and reasonable to all concerned with the point of informing consumers like most of us are on who is a good vendor and who has a lot of problems. It should be equally fair to both sides.

Once a plan is decided on that the MAJORITY of the board agrees with it should be put to a vote that PAYING MEMBERS of this group can approve or disapprove and then be put into effect. Done

That is my suggestion. If you don't like it come up with something better that is fair and I'll be glad to support it but please those of you that are fighting this out stop this now endless bickering that is tearing things down instead of promoting good fellowship and allowing us to be enthusiastic about these great cars we love.

There are a lot of good people here lets get along and agree not fight it out.

Be a part of making this a better experience for everybody, not the reverse.

Mark
1970 280 SL Ivory/Cognac

[waqas]

Those of you debating the viability of a libel/defamation lawsuit are completely missing the point.

The problem is with stray comments like "Removed by Moderator" I'm sure Bob is a fine gentleman, but this comment should have been moderated away.

Why? because such a comment is poor taste, NOT because of the possibility of legal backlash.

I wonder how our members would feel if we were allowed to get away with statements like "My guess is that waqas is a liar and a crook when he sells parts to the rest of us". Stick to the facts and no one will fault anyone. Let others decide whether waqas is a crook based on the FACTS on the ground.

How about those of you who felt offended by comments made about Hans (H&R) waaaaaay back in this thread:  http://index.php?topic=1278
In that case, the author of the original post followed up and posted the eventual outcome.

But what if our "vendor experience" forum doesn't include the resolution of the dispute?  Are we going to chase down the author until he "closes" the vendor dispute?

Remember when a few of us came to the defense of Kemal Shah when we felt a certain other forum member seemed to be picking on him too much? (and making borderline personal comments)

My point is that comments like that would not be tolerated if they were made against another forum member. Why should we tolerate them against some anonymous vendor out there?

Are we prepared to start moderating this "vendor rating" forum like hawks?  IF the answer is NO, then it doesn't belong here in the first place.

Waqas in Austin, Texas

Edited by - Admin, 28 April 2008

[paulr]

I certainly remember this very well and I think that Ami was treated appallingly by certain members. He did have an unfortunate turn of phrase but I think that you in particular were very intolerant of his bad ...and amusing..... grasp of English. He hasn't posted much since so I guess that 'the forums' dislike of him moved him on. That's a real shame and those that were so hi handed and carried forth the burning crosses should be truly ashamed of themselves.   If I remember correctly, his posts to Kemal were laced with apology and I think he may have even directly apologised for his bad English.

quote:
Remember when a few of us came to the defense of Kemal Shah when we felt a certain other forum member seemed to be picking on him too much? (and making borderline personal comments)

Waqas in Austin, Texas

paulr
1970 280 SL

[Cees Klumper]

The board of directors just met (via conference call) and, on the issue discussed here, concluded the following.

In order to post on the forums, each member has accepted the 'Registration Rules and Policies Agreement' posted here:

http://www.sl113.org/forums/policy.asp

Relevant parts of that agreement for this particular topic:

"You are fully responsible for any information or file supplied by this user. You also agree that you will not post any copyrighted material that is not owned by yourself or the owners of these forums. In your use of these forums, you agree that you will not post any information which is vulgar, harassing, hateful, threatening, invading of others privacy, sexually oriented, or violates any laws."

and

"We are authorized by you to remove or modify any data submitted by you to these forums for any reason we feel constitutes a violation of our policies, whether stated, implied or not."

The board does encourage the exchange of information that is relevant to our community, including members’ experiences with vendors. When posting such experiences, only factual comments should be made that members know to be true.

As many of you know, we will be migrating over to another forum environment; this will happen within the next month or two. The board will review the current Registration Rules and Policies Agreement for possible update. When we change over to the new forum, we will require each member to confirm their agreement with the rules and policy.

For your information, the board, elected by the full (i.e. paying) members, currently consists of Rodd Masteller, Tom Sargeant, Mike Hund, Jim Villers, Jon Bernardi (all residing in the United States), Achim Ahlert (Germany) and Peter van Es and myself, in The Netherlands. Jim Villers was the only board member who could not participate in our call just now.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[cth350]

Speaking with a strictly US-centric point of view, I've got a first amendment right to speak my mind.  I have a responsibility to not be too boneheaded in what I say or how I say it.

There is a huge amount of wiggle room for subjectivity and personal perspective here. What's one person's prose is another's rant.

I have implicit trust in the moderators of this forum to wield their red pen with care and concern.  I hope that the software will be configured so that any post edited by a moderator triggers a note to the poster that an edit was made. Including the before/after text would be a nice thing.

The moderators and any member of the board should be prepred to have one of those emails forwarded to him/her in an appeal to restore or further alter the text.

-CTH

[Richard Madison]

Charles (CTH350):

You may have noticed a small addition to the bottom of some messages "Edited by - 280SL71" That's me moderating, usually to move a message to a more correct forum, or to correct spelling which makes understanding difficult, or maybe to "translate" from UK to US English; sometimes adding a word to allow a common word search to be made.

From my observation, Moderators rarely censor a message. This thread is an example of how conservative the Moderators have been and how they leave things alone allowing a frank and free discussion. With all the ranting and strong emotion that's in this thread, not one word has been removed or changed by a Moderator.

As for a notice that a message has been modified, the poster can look at his post (or subscribe to it) to see if a modification has been made or wait for the post Thread to rise to the top of the Forum. (A modification moves a message up as though just posted.)

Having the old, changed text visible would defeat the purpose of the making the change or deletion...a modification might be made because the text is confusing, offensive, or blatantly improper. The previous text should not be visible.

If a Poster (or anyone) sees that a Moderator has made a change which the they feel is not proper, as you mentioned, an e-mail can be sent to the Moderator or to the Admin with a comment or complaint.

Sorry to go on a bit, but no one has ever said what a Moderator (unpaid and unthanked) does. Now you know.

Richard M; Moderator

[mdsalemi]

Richard,

Well we can't pay you, but we can thank you for living up to the responsibilities you took on!  Thanks.  

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
President, International Stars Section
Mercedes-Benz Club of America

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by cth350

Speaking with a strictly US-centric point of view, I've got a first amendment right to speak my mind.  I have a responsibility to not be too boneheaded in what I say or how I say it.

Charles,
Yes, you (we) do have freedom of speech.  But in recent postings people made unfounded accusations of other people/businesses.  If conversations are backed up by facts, then they will obviously be left intact.  What the moderators, and I am one, alter or remove will always be at our discretion.  There just can't be hard and strict rules about what's acceptable and not.  May I give an example of what I consider proper vendor feedback vs. improper vendor feed back?

Improper:
This vendor is irresponsible and probably a crook.

Proper:
This vendor received my order on this date.  I paid for express shipping.  I did not receive a tracking number.  I contacted the vendor on this date after not receiving the package.  They said they shipped it on time.  I did not receive my order for 10 days, arriving on this date.  This caused me to not enter the Pagoda in a car club event, for which I had already spent $xxx dollars on other items for the car in preparation.  The vendor would not take the item back or refund my money.

I hope the members of this forum will take a more factual approach to describing the problems they have had with vendors.  The truth is that comments will probably fall somewhere in the middle.  One example that did NOT get edited, but asked for more detail, is here:

http://index.php?topic=8590

See my posting on 21 Apr 2008 @ 23:31:19.

I personally prefer to give the poster of the questionable statement a chance to explain themselves before moderating anything.

I hope you are at ease and you don't feel that we will be changing every post.

Rodd
Pagoda Technical Manual
please contibute: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/pmwiki.php
1966 230SL
2006 C230 Sport Sedan