Author Topic: Pinging from cylinder #5  (Read 27550 times)

Longtooth

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2008, 02:10:10 »
Ulfi,
If the problem is indeed a rod-knock or any other wear related issue between bearings and piston/cylinder, and has been constant for as long as previous owner indicated, then it's strange that the sound (pinking or pinging) is not also occurring on any other cylinders.

If you need to pull and rebuild engine however, you might want to research the cost of a full rebuild (long block) by contacting Metric Motors (in Canoga Park near Los Angeles) and shipping costs.  A full rebuild (long block) for a 250SL engine using my own block, cost USD $4.5k 4 years ago... but I see now that long block rebuild costs USD $6700 (230SL or 250SL engine) plus a "core deposit" of USD $1.5k in case one of your core pieces  (block, head, &/or crankshaft) has to be replaced.  Shipping charges (both directions) from my CA location cost me nearly nothing though.  I would guess that shipping (slow boat) your block from Denmark to LA and back would be perhaps $1k - $1.5k... so total cost would probably come to something around $8200 USD if none of your core items needed to be replaced.... that wouldn't include cost of removal/reinstalling the engine though.  

If you're forced into rebuild and you have to pay USD $10k to have this done in Denmark you may want to consider having the premier MB engine rebuild shop do the work.... total cost may even be less than $10k.

I still have to suspect a problem unrelated to wear since only one cylinder has the sound (pinging)... also pinking or pinging sound is higher pitch than the "knock" sound of a rod-knock... decidedly different in tone.  I agree with Shvegel however in-as-much-as the possibility of a rod knock, bearing wear, or piston slap potential does exist. An experienced mechanic can, on the other hand, discern the difference between sound due to wear (knock, slap) and pinging due to detonation / combustion problem.... especially with some diagnostic tools at their disposal... stethoscope listening predominantly.  As an engineer, a frequency analyzer tuned to various audio ranges can discern the differences in pitch... but I'm not sure any normal mechanical shops would have the equipment (audio frequency analyzers or techs that can use them) so that might not be of any practical value to you.

I suggest (still) that you retard and advance timing sufficiently in order to see if the pinking or pinging sound dissappears (with spark at Cyl #5) without also starting to occur on one or more of the other cylinders, but with engine still able to run of course... at higher rpm and during acceleration of engine rpm.  If advancing or retarding the spark causes Cyl #5 to stop pinging without the other cylinders also starting to ping, then it's not a wear problem.  If on the other hand a small change in advance or retarding the spark causes the other cylinders to start pinging as well, and IF the sound of pinging from the other cylinders due to advance or retarding the spark is higher pitch than Cyl #5's "pinging" sound, then you'll have to consider the wear problem issues as the dominant probabilities.

By the way, any of the wear problems get noticably worse with engine use, so if prior owner told you sound has "been there for years"... then he was being less than fully honest with you (sound should have gotten worse with engine use over the "years") or he didn't use the engine much for the "years" he used the car. Once a wear condition starts it snowballs... gets worse at a faster rate.  A pinging sound that's "been there for years" isn't consistant with a wear-out of a bearing (rod, piston pin) or piston slap issue.

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2008, 08:45:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by glennard

Does it change/go away/etc when you advance/retard the timing?  Could be connecting rod bearings?  Try 50 wt oil?(Castrol for 75K+ engines)




As Longtooth says---Does advancing and retarding the timing effect the 'ping'?   50 and/or 90 wt oil effect ping?  If the plug is pulled-what?

Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 06:20:32 »
Thanks again - the 8200 USD for the rebuild equals that of one here, but without the horrible 25% VAT. If a rebuild is needed, I will seriously consider your suggestion (although it seems strange to send a German engine all the way to LA when Germany is only 200 miles south...). Poland could be another option to be considered. We haven't tried advancing the timing or the 50W oil yet, but my mechanic has until the end of this week to come up with something or the car will be passed on to a 75-year old Mercedes expert that a colleague of mine stumbled upon at a photo shoot last week, he should be one of the best and will probably put a lot more love into the process than my current mechanic...
I'll keep you guys posted - and thanks again for your very helpful inputs (even though I'm in advertising, my heart is getting all warm...)

Ulf

Benz Dr.

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 10:32:58 »
You usually don't hear rod knock when the engine is started from cold. As the oil heats up and thins out a bit, the knock will start and grow louder. Pulling the plug wire on that cylinder will pretty much make the noise go away.
A rocker or valve train related noise will be there always with the noise growing louder as the engine warms. Pulling a plug wire will have no effect on the noise.
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Longtooth

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2008, 03:31:16 »
Ulfi,
If, as I still must suspect as the primary probability, it's a combustion chamber detonation issue, the head will have to be pulled anyway.  Pulling the head will let mechanic see the condition of the combustion chambers, intake and exhaust ports, valves, seats, and top of pistons... or any possible other issues.  ... and cam can be removed to measure cam lobe profiles.  If problem is identified with head removal then it may be a head reconditioning only... no engine rebuild required.

Your switching to a 75 year old Mercedes expert mechanic will more than likely provide the requisite expertise and experience to distinguish whether a detonation issue or a mechanical (bearing wear) one is to blame.

Keep us informed so that ultimately it adds to the forum's experience and knowledge base.  

 


Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2008, 08:14:15 »
The 75-year old MB-guru turned out to be 79 and not willing to do any mechanical work due to his age, but he offered a few advices similar in nature to what you guys have posted over the last few weeks. But my present mechanic found that one of the rocker arms was completely busted up - apparently he missed that on his first examination, he will replace it and see what happens - I'll keep my fingers crossed until then...

Longtooth

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2008, 01:03:40 »
Ulfi ---
Sounds like the "busted up" rocker arm might be related... IF it's on cylinder #5.  Word to the wise: Ask your mechanic how the rocker arm could get "busted up" in the manner it is.  The question is related to whether the reason fits with the prior owner's statement that the "sound has been there since he had the car", so if it's a recent occurrance condition --- being "busted up"---  it may have more to do with your mechanic than the original problem posed by the prior owner.

Also, if the rocker arm's "busted up", it may be due to interference between valve stem and piston or a valve guide issue.  Valve stem or valve may also be "busted-up" as well.  If "busted up" rocker arm is on the intake valve on Cyl #5 then I still submit that the "busted-up" rocker arm is a symptom of the problem, and may not be the direct cause.  Fixing it may help, but not necessarily resolve the problem.

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2008, 22:15:51 »
How about a pix of a 'busted up' rocker arm?

Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2008, 02:47:02 »
He has already replaced it and it seems as it was the culprit - however, the valve itself now seems to be too short giving a larger clearance even when correctly adjusted. He will measure it today and have a machine shop fiddle with it somehow, I'll see if I can persuade him to take a photo of it or give it to me afterwards instead of just throwing it away - I'll keep you posted, but am happy that it didn't require a rebuild after all...

ja17

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2008, 20:41:49 »
Hello,

A compression check on that particular cylinder will tell you if you have a bent valve...... "valve is now too short".  If the compression is ok, you probably do not have a damaged valve. You may need to simply add a thicker adjustment pad under the rocker arm end. Varius thicknesses are available.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 20:46:16 by ja17 »
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Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2008, 02:24:50 »
Problem with the noise and the short valve is solved! But it turned out that the timing chain is off by 10 degrees which could also account for the jerky driving (see that post elsewhere) that has been somewhat cured by other means. However, each tooth of the chain represent 22 degrees (so my mechanic tells me) so it is not just a matter of taking it off and putting it back on, but more investigation is needed. But I will get the car back this afternoon and deal with that issue later...
Thanks again for your dedicated and most helpful input, I hope that this thread can help others dealing with the same issue.

Best regards

Ulf

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2008, 04:46:50 »
Please send a pix of the cam sprocket gear.  --- The one with the 22 degree teeth.  I realize it may take awhile.  It will help my variable timing project.     P.S.  Get a new mechanic!!!!    
----Danes never meshed well with the Huns.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 04:48:38 by glennard »

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2008, 04:53:44 »
By the way--anybody have the part number for the 22 degree sprocket?

Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2008, 06:43:25 »
Glenn, I didn't understand your last comment but I sensed the irony...perhaps even garnished with a little ridicule?
I am just trying to relay what he told me on the phone and I will get the full explanation this afternoon when I pick up the car, but perhaps I'm not fluent enough in the more technical terms of the U.S./English automotive language. I don't even know what some of the parts are called in Danish, so please bear with me.
I'll try and snap a few pics today, perhaps they will clarify matters but I can't make any promises as things are getting a bit hectic here...

Regards

Ulf

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2008, 07:18:26 »
Ulfi, Most, the ones that work, gear wheels have full unit numbers of teeth, i.e. 10, 11, 62, 12, 46, 55, etc.  It is tough to have a fractional number(unless it is broken, then you need a gear tooth dentist).  Then given the number of teeth, divide that into 360 degrees to find the number of degrees per tooth.  For instance, 40 teeth into 360- 9 degrees  and 36 teeth is 10 degrees.  360 degrees divided by 22 degrees presents a tooth problem- fuzzy gear tooth math.  Maybe that's why the Danes and the Germans didn't mesh, but mashed.

Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2008, 08:37:58 »
Never mind the 22 degrees, he might have said 20...
The theory is that the head probably has been resurfaced before leading to slack in the timing chain causing it to bee 10 degrees off. Three people have been into this problem for the last couple of days: my mechanic, a specialist who used to run the mechanical department of Mercedes Benz Denmark and another specialist that only does complicated engine rebuilds for a living. But I'm really not going to go into this discussion as my mechanical knowledge is limited - I suggest you give him a call to settle things at +45 36 45 19 44 (he is 59, so his English is probably not that good...)
The sound that caused this whole thread is gone now, but the engine now seems sluggish as if it isn't firing on all cylinders - but it is!
I've just driven it a short distance of about a mile and a half, so I might take it for a seriuos spin tonight after tucking in the kids to see if a little "Italian tuning" improves matters.

Bye for now...

Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2008, 08:44:46 »
Pics of bits and pieces - one of the replacements was flown in from Argentina and they cost a total of appr. USD 120,- incl. VAT
They were completely worn through - probably already years ago which corresponds with the previous owners statement that the sound had been there throughout his ownership.

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waqas

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2008, 10:13:03 »
Glad you solved your "pinging" problem.

If your chain has jumped a tooth, it may just be stretched to a dangerous level. I wouldn't advise driving the car too much for the risk of snapping the chain. If you don't know when the chain was last replaced, it may be good insurance to get that done first.

Do a search and you'll find a thread where one of our friends (Naj) had sudden timing chain failure. It is not cheap to undo the damage from this.

Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2008, 10:18:43 »
Good advice. Check it all-guides, tensioner, crank/cam timing, sprocket teeth for hooking, everything---  Engine should purr at all rpm.  Stand a coin on the valve cover---

Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2008, 11:30:05 »
DANG - this really sucks, the sound may be gone, but the car accellerates like a snail on valium now, took me 30 secs to reach 60 mph. when I took it for a spin 10 minutes ago!
Something is definetely not right here - I almost miss my TR6 and MGA....
Will it take it back tomorrow morning and I don't care how busy he is!

Keep you guys posted!

Ulf

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2008, 14:59:06 »
Bring it to PUB-2009. It'll go home HAPPY.

Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2008, 00:49:30 »
What is PUB-2009?

quote:
Originally posted by glennard

Bring it to PUB-2009. It'll go home HAPPY.


Ulfi

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2008, 05:42:15 »
Sometimes you just overlook the obvious - a second look at the spark plugs revealed the #3 was fouled (probably as a result of the slight rich mixture that it has suffered from in the last couple of months). It was ok while idling, but not at revs, I've just replaced during lunch and it now purrs as a kitten!

A nice weekend to you all

Ulf

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2008, 05:45:19 »
PUB-2009 is 'Pagoda University Blacklick in 2009'.  Joe and Mary Alexander have hosted THE BEST-that is THE BEST- auto weekend in Blacklick, Ohio, USA in odd years in late July.  About 20 Pagodas and 50 or so people.  Put it on your schedule.  Dollars are cheap.  We Americans need tourists.

glennard

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Re: Pinging from cylinder #5
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2008, 05:52:38 »

Glenn, I didn't understand your last comment but I sensed the irony...perhaps even garnished with a little ridicule?
I am just trying to relay what he told me on the phone and I will get the full explanation this afternoon when I pick up the car, but perhaps I'm not fluent enough in the more technical terms of the U.S./English automotive language. I don't even know what some of the parts are called in Danish, so please bear with me.
I'll try and snap a few pics today, perhaps they will clarify matters but I can't make any promises as things are getting a bit hectic here...

Regards

Just PPP - Perceptive Pagoda Persiflage.   NOT PPP- Personal Pagoda Perfidy.    Sounds like your engine has attained the PPP- the Perfect Pagoda Purr.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 05:53:44 by glennard »