Distributor replacement from 123 ignition

[Martijn]

Last Friday I ordered the MERCEDES-6-R-V model from 123ignition together with a Bosh blue coil. It promises to be a great improvement. In a few days it will arrive.

Martijn

[philmas]

Congratulations!
Please, keep us informed !

[Naj ✝︎]

quote:Originally posted by Martijn

Last Friday I ordered the MERCEDES-6-R-V model from 123ignition together with a Bosh blue coil. It promises to be a great improvement. In a few days it will arrive.

Martijn

Any particular reason for the 'blue' coil?

naj

[Martijn]

Naj,

Not a particular reason for the blue coil, but it was advised by the shop. Do you think another type of coil should be better for the Pagoda?

Martijn

[Naj ✝︎]

quote:Originally posted by Martijn

Naj,

Not a particular reason for the blue coil, but it was advised by the shop. Do you think another type of coil should be better for the Pagoda?

Martijn

Nah, just curiosity  :oops:
Don't know enough about coils to make any suggestions...

naj

[Benz Dr.]

This distributor IS from a 6 cylinder euro 123 gas car. I found one in a wrecked 280T station wagon that I have here. This is a typical hall effect type with nothing special about it and it's a factory part.

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Benz Dr.

This distributor IS from a 6 cylinder euro 123 gas car. I found one in a wrecked 280T station wagon that I have here. This is a typical hall effect type with nothing special about it and it's a factory part.

It looks new and chrome plated.  Are you indicating that the 123 distributor isn't really their product, but a Bosch OEM factory product that they have modified (with the Hall effect innards)and are selling as their own?

If so, it still seems to be a bargain...a new Bosch distributor with an electronic upgrade (er, modification for those that believe in points and condensers) in it for $700 sounds pretty good.  Last I checked when I was looking for a distributor, new, for our 6-cylinder model (or its replacement) it was over $1,200.

I paid about $200 for a used -050; another $125 for a rebuild, and another $100 for a Pertronix.  So for a used, rebuild, Hall effect 050 (if you can find a good 050) was about $425 2 years ago.  $700 today for a new equivalent?  Sounds good, eh?

[Naj ✝︎]

quote:Originally posted by Benz Dr.

This distributor IS from a 6 cylinder euro 123 gas car. I found one in a wrecked 280T station wagon that I have here. This is a typical hall effect type with nothing special about it and it's a factory part.

Hey, Doc,
What engine have you got in that 280T?

Here's one from a M110 twin cam 2.8E.
Its humongous, but its beauty is that it can do both vac advance and vac retard!



naj

[Benz Dr.]

Maybe it's from a 250T I don't remember but it's the same size as a 051 or other types we use. This is a true hall effect unit but I think you need the ECU to make it work. The car has a coil like any other but it requires all the parts to work and has cable with a 3 pin connector.

Engine variant is the M 123. A strange engine with single row chain, 5 main bearings and 86mm pistons along with a 4 barrel carb like a M110 twin cam.

[Martijn]

This week I replaced my original Bosch 0231.116.051 distributor for an 123ignition MERCEDES-6-R-V electronic ignition.

I am a complete novice in this area. For me it was the first time ever I tinkered with this part. So I hesitated a lot whether or not I should do this myself. But it turns out to be an easy job.

I started with replacing the coil for a 'blue' coil. This 'blue' coil was recommended by the shop because this one is suitable for electronic ignitions. The type number is Bosch 0.221.119.027 K 12V.

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My original coil is 59 mm in diameter. The new blue coil is 55 mm in diameter. I filled the gap between the bracket and the coil with a rubber strip with a thickness of 2 mm. I used a spare rubber strip which is normally used on both sides of the radiator.
123ignition recommends to disconnect the ballast resistor, which I did.

After that I had to turn the crankshaft to the static timing point on the scale. It was not easy to sneak in a 27 mm socket in the engine pulley because there is so little space between the radiator and the pulley. I used a cardan or knee (is this the right word in English?) as an extension on the 1/2" ratchet. I had to remove al the spark plugs in order to get the crankshaft in motion. But it worked.

Then I removed the old distributor and carefully mounted the 123ignition. From then it is straight forward. Connect the red wire to the coil and turn on the ignition. Slowly turn the housing of the 123ignition untill the green LED lights up through one of the holes in the disc. Then you can finish the remaining wiring.

AWOLFF280SL mentioned that you need to grind off some material of the housing. It is correct that you can't fully insert the 123ignition in the base. This is because it gets stuck on the clamping bolt. In my opinion the solution is simple: just turn over the plate and no grinding is needed. See the difference in the pictures.

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In the second picture the clamping bolt is situated at the bottom. In this way it does not interfere with the 123ignition housing. The disadvantage of this solution is that the Allen bolt is now on the opposite side. That is a little more difficult if you want to tighten or loosen the bolt. But one of the intentions is to decrease maintainance, so I probably don't need to loosen this bolt for a long time.

When I turned the ignition key for the first time after installing the 123ignition it started immediately. I can't tell you how happy I was!! Unbelievable that I did this myself.
The engine runs very smoothly now. Not that it didn't before that, but it feels like it has a bit more power. And there is also no more hesitation between 2000 and 3000 rpm. I am very happy with it.
After a little test drive, I fine tuned the ignition with a stroboscope.

My colleague restored a Citroën 2CV two years ago. He also replaced his distributor for an 123ignition. He is very happy with it and never had any problems with it.

I needed some extra parts that were not included in the kit. Two connectors to connect the two wires to the coil. A short piece of vacuum hose with an inside diameter of 4 mm to connect the existing vacuum hose to the 123ignition.

The only problem left is that the engine idles at very low rpm, between 500 and 600. This has nothing to do with the 123ignition, because it did this before. Can anyone tell me how to adjust the idle speed to a higher rpm? I know that there must be a little adjustment screw, but I don't know where.

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[jameshoward]

Martijn,

Congratulations, and what a top tip on the install to avoid grinding things. I agree fully with your logic about the aim being to reduce maint. Makes sense.

As for your idle issue, first I would say that if the car idles happily at 600 rpm (doesn't cough or splutter) and your plugs are the correct colour then its fine. My car sits very happily at 600rpm. If, however, you need to raise the idle then you should start off by reading Joe Alexander's excellent linkage tour. If you haven't already done so, this will allow you to examine your linkage to ensure the mix is right. See where that takes you. There are a number of parts of the linkage that get incorrectly adjusted, such as the venturi valve stop screw. By 'taking the tour' you should find out if there are any errors.

That aside, I am also thinking of putting in the 123 ignition. When you set your timing with a strobe, can you tell me if you noticed whether your timing was a great deal steadier under the light than before?

James

[Martijn]

James, thanks for the tip about the linkage tour. When I received that issue of the Pagoda Notes I thought this article was too difficult for me. So I didn't fully read it. But I will study this first now.

When my engine idles at 500 or 600 rpm it doesn't run very smoothly. But my main problem is that when I drive my car and have to shift back, before a turn for example, then the rpm drops too much and the engine stalls. I think if could rise the idle speed this problem is solved. But as I said, I had this problem before I installed the 123ignition.

Regarding the strobe, this was the first time I used such a device. I borrowed it from a colleague. I have no reference of timing it with my original distributor, but the timing was indeed steady. Just like in the demo movie on YouTube. Hope this answers your question.

Martijn

[jameshoward]

Martijn,

The linkage tour is definately not difficult and you will learn a great deal about how the car works from taking it. Just note, though, that there is a bit of an art to getting the linkage correct. My car used to hunt when idling and I had to do the linkage 3 times to get it right. (I've now screwed it all up again by changing the ball sockets). There's lots to check but it's very rewarding. Check also dwell and timing, your plugs, air filter and all that other easy stuff. There's a ton of info on the site about what to look at. None of it is difficult. (Actually, I suppose you don't need to check dwell with an electronic ignition do you???)

Anyway, be patient and don't be too surprised if you have to do it a few times. Finally, my car is a manual so I can see why with an auto your low idle might be more of a problem for you.

JH

[Martijn]

James,

Perhaps "difficult" was not the right word. At the time the linkage tour was not applicable for me, so I wasn't much interested. But now I get more involved in the technology of the car and I'm learning more and more.

With the 123ignition you don't need to set the dwell. You only have to select a curve once with a little switch. I chose curve number 8. I consulted the shop about this and they were very helpful (www.leenapk.nl). You could also see this in the manual of the 123ignition.

My car is a manual too (4-speed). Sometimes when I step on the clutch too abruptly, the engine stalls because the rpm drops too much. I am very much interested in the linkage tour now  

Martijn

[philmas]

Martijn, did you have to change all the wiring as well regarding your new electronic ignitor, or did you keep the old ignition harness (spark plug wires)?

[Martijn]

Hi Philippe,

Yes and no. I didn't replace the spark plug wires this time. But 4 months ago they were replaced by my mechanic. So they are almost new. He replaced them because my engine hesitated between 2000 and 3000 rpm. He also replaced the spark plugs and the points.

I would say that if you mistrust your wires, this would be a good time to replace them if you are installing an electronic ignition. Just to be sure you get the maximum out of your ignition. In my case the complete electric chain from coil to spark plugs is new.

Martijn

[Ziggy]

quote:I started with replacing the coil for a 'blue' coil. This 'blue' coil was recommended by the shop because this one is suitable for electronic ignitions.

I am sorry to say, but the 'blue' coil is absolutely not suited for use with the 123. The 123 needs a primary resistance of at least 1 ohm, the 'blue' coil has a primary resistance of 0,4 ohm.
Now the 123 will not malfunction immediately, but you need to replace the coil.

[Cees Klumper]

AFAIK raising the idle is as simple as turning the slotted screw at the back of the fuel injection pump inwards a few clicks (engine off!), and, using a CO meter, adjusting the air screw on the intake manifold to set the correct air/fuel mixture. So you're adding fuel + air this way, in the right mix (CO value as per the book) and, presto, higher idle RPM.
Simple first check not involving the fuel injection pump would be to tinker with the air screw on the intake manifold (turning it slowly to see whether the idle goes up or down, while checking the CO value before-and-after).

On the ignition wires - checking resistance with an Ohm meter will tell you whether the wires and/or caps are bad. I do this as part of the annual service since I once had a wire go bad on me that was only a year or two old.

[Martijn]

Ziggy,

According the 123ignition manual the coil resistance should be more than 1 Ohm. I have checked it this afternoon with a digital multimeter. The result was 3.4 Ohm, so it should be fine. This coil in combination with the 123ignition was recommended to me by a specialist.
I disconnected the ballast resistor because that would add an extra 1.4 Ohm.

Martijn

[Martijn]

Cees,

Unfortunately I don’t have CO-meter at my disposal. But I will read the linkage tour this weekend carefully. Thanks for the tip, though.
During lunch today, I made a quick test drive with a colleague. He was impressed how smooth the engine is running. Always nice to see someone’s reaction  

Martijn

[Ziggy]

quote:According the 123ignition manual the coil resistance should be more than 1 Ohm. I have checked it this afternoon with a digital multimeter. The result was 3.4 Ohm, so it should be fine. This coil in combination with the 123ignition was recommended to me by a specialist.
I disconnected the ballast resistor because that would add an extra 1.4 Ohm.

I doubt your specialist knows what he is talking about. I know for a fact that 123 does NOT endorse the use of any other coil than the original. Your original coil already was suited for the 123. The original blue coil has a resistance of about 0,4 ohm. I do not know what coil you have now, but if you want a better spark, you certainly do not need a coil with a 3,4 ohm resistance, then you need the red coil. It gives something like a 27K volt spark and has 1,8 ohm resistance. There are also some other options for coils in Holland.

[Cees Klumper]

After reading up on the 123 unit, I'm going to order one (at 300 euros it's not a big investment). I checked my ignition timing today with the timing light and it does not appear to be as stable as it should be. Like Martijn has done, I will report the results here.

[gwuisman]

I have had installed a 123 ignition last october. The difference was significant. Better starting, smoother running engine, more powerfull. Cees, if you want to experience, be my guest.

Gerard Wuisman
1971 280sl

[Ziggy]

But if you already have transistorized ignition or other electronic ignition you probably won't notice the difference.

[Cees Klumper]

Thanks for the offer Gerard - I picked up a 123 unit at Van Dijk's this afternoon (they confirmed that they install a LOT of these on Pagodas they service) and I could not resist installing it this evening. It was just like Martijn described, about a one hour process. The car started right up, and with the static timing procedure it was already timed almost exactly according to spec, as verified by timing (stroboscopic) light. With-and-without-vacuum-attached readings were as per the book.

Ziggy - I had installed an electronic ignition module to work with the standard (rebuilt by me a few years ago) 051 Bosch distributor. The main difference with the 123 though is the almost complete absence of moving parts inside the unit. No flyweights, springs etc. So you can have a high-tech electronic ignition installed in your car, it is still dependent on the accuracy of the mechanical distributor which can have play in the bearings and all kind of other issues. So this is really one step beyond 'just' adding an electronic ignition to your conventional distributor. And at a cost of around EUR 300, it's a relatively small investment in knowing you have a brand-new complete ignition, no points, dwell or (consistency of) advance issues to worry about.