To buy or not to buy? Pleaseeee help me;)

[MBhundertdreizehn]

Hello, I don`t know if you saw my last post but I`m one that is from Germany and is seeking a Pagoda in USA. So I`m still seeking one right for me, I was to slow to get the James Stern`s 280SL which was in the sale section, so now I`m looking another one that is located in Philadelphia.

It is an early 1964 230SL, that looks quiet nice from the outside but of course needs some more work to look really nice. As all old cars it has some good and some bad things on the car. Because I`m not very knowledged about the Pagodas I would really apreciate if you would give me some opinions from you that know Pagodas like your own pockets. Oh yes, the price is I think fair 13500$ in cash.

So let`s start with good parts of that car and of course pictures of the car. The good thing is that car is really ORIGINAL, because it`s in owners hands back from the 1969 when he bought it from first owner, so it`s a 2nd hand car.

The front of the car looks really nice, an old Pagoda look. It has brand new grill and complete new left front light.



Yes from 20feet away car really looks nice



On the back of the car there are 2 problems: 1 MISSING CHROME PIECE FROM THE LIGHT and a little bit CRACKED right light. So does maybe anyone know for this chrome piece?









The other good thing on the car is also NEW INTERIOUR, damn but is not LEATHER, but VINYL:(





The steering wheel is original but cracked...I hope I will be able to repair it. Yes, the car also have A-C and original Becker radio that will need to be make to work...



The floorpans were replaced between restoration, 8 years ago:



On one side rocker panels are in really good condition:



On the engine there was also some work done when restoring, also the fuel pump was replaced and some other things were also replaced.







Ok the firewall is not in good condition but is really original. But here is the original VIN plate...



New grill and lights, it looks NICE;)



It has vertical tire place in the trunk, the runk is original but without any serious rust, of course I will repaint it:





And now enough with the good things, let start with BAAAD things, that will requiere a lot of work.

 First one and the most serious is rust throught in the drivers rocker panel. It is bad, but I think that my metal workman will be able to repair it, what do you think?



The second worst thing is by the windscreen hole, where the wipers are, do you think this is very very bad or repairable?



The third bad thing is the rust blister on a drivers rear fender, but it`s not rust through, so it can be repaired with no need to buy new fender. I really have a filling that someone didn`t do good his work here:(



The car also has few scratches around the car, but I think that I would either way have to reapint the car:



The undercar was powercoated with this black thing, I just hope that there is not a lot ob bad things under it. The owner said to me and I must say that I think he is honest, that undercar is really good.



I know that car is far from perfect but what do you think it is worth 13000$? I think that is a good thing to do on it, I really like because it`s original, owner have all of the papers that proves that the car is really original, back from when it was imported to USA.

I would really appreciate any of your opinions, because they mean a lot to me, because I`m not very known to the Pagodas. I have restored one Triumph spitfire MK3, but now is really to realize my dreams with Pagoda

[Douglas]

Primoz,

When you say it's "original," what do you mean? The car has been repainted and has a new interior.

[thelews]

Run, run, run!  Whew, a lot of corrosion on that one.  Look at the chrome other than bumpers (like the dash).  There's a lot of corrosion that you don't see.

[J. Huber]

Hi MB230. Glad to see you are back hunting again. I have a couple thoughts about this choice. But before I would give you my official opinion to buy or not -- I have to ask... What is your goal? A nice drivable Pagoda -- or a really nice (drivable but mostly showable) collector? Second question: how much money beyond the 13000 are you ready to spend to get the car to your standards?

In many ways, this looks like a nice vehicle for the price. The interior appears pretty decent -- you would have a few items to address, like the steering wheel and center hub. These can be purchased new, used, or as you mentioned restored. I'd go new but that's me. The wood might need some conditioning as well. All very doable. I'd be curious as to whether A/C and radio work. Again fixable but may cost some.

Exterior-wise: I get the feeling they did a quick re-spray at some point. Looks nice but there are plenty of trouble spots lurking. I notice the chrome in places is faded -- may clean up or not (z.b. the right tail light bezel). The front bumbers look banged up to me as well. The missing chrome you noticed is all available. You'd also need to add the chrome strips behind the rear wheels. So factor in some money for chrome work.

The body work issues you noticed are likely the tip of the iceberg. This is where things are going to add up quickly. The body itself looks fine -- but the sills, rockers and likely hidden floor areas will need some attention. The area around the wipers is a common area for rust -- in your case, any water to this area is inside now.

Finally -- and, this is the biggest question mark as far as I am concerned: How does it run? what is the condition of the mechanicals? The engine bay suggests it hasn't exactly been babied -- yet it doesn't look like its been abused either. I'd want to have a 113 mechanic check it over very carefully.

So here's my take. At 13000 -- and taking the necessary body work into consideration -- I'd expect this car to run fairly well and most everything work. (heater/AC/radio/wipers/turn signal stalk). I'd make sure brakes & clutch & trans have been taken care of. If it has mechanical problems -- I'd run away. There is just too much to be addressed already.

Either way, I think to get this car to decent driver status, you will need to put in another 13000 minumum (easily). That brings me back to my earlier question: how much more do you want to put in right away?

[rwmastel]

Primoz,

I have the same question as Douglas.  What is "orginal"?

- New grill and left headlight (probably body damage repaired?).
- "The floorpans were replaced between restoration, 8 years ago."  How much of a restoration?  What other work was done then?  Body repairs?  Glossy new red paint?
- Upholstry and carpet are new.
- Undercoating is NOT what Mercedes-Benz did.
- That right taillight, next to the missing chrome, looks wrong.  Is it not chrome?  Very faded and dull.
- There was engine work (new fuel pump?).  What was the extent of the work?  The black paint on the vavle cover is incorrect.

If all this body/interior/engine work was done at once 8 years ago, I would question the quality with which it was done.  Incorrect things like the valve cover and underbody coating suggest a restorer who is not famailar with 1960's Mercedes-Benz cars.  Who knows what else may be wrong.

I don't know how serious the rust is that you have shown us, but I bet there is more rust that you can't see.  I believe worst place it could be would be in the box section in the firewall, and then in the box sections around the body of the car.

Does this long-time owner have lots of documentation of service and repairs performed?  Original manuals?

Before recommending "run, run, run!" like John, I would recommend a member in the area examine it for you, or we find a trusted mechanic would could provide a full inspection.  Who knows, the price may be negotiable!

Because of the serious damage to the steering wheel, I would believe that the car has been left outside for extended time.  Thay may contribute to the rust since the restoration.

[scoot]

I'm inclined to think that you need to look more for rust given the rust that you have already found.  Take out the wooden boxes behind the seat (thumb screw on either side of area, carpeted wooden boxes lift out) and look under there.  Also look under the carpeting behind/under the seats.   I also wonder if the undercoating and the new interior is covering something bad.  In the car I just purchased, the worst rust was the trunk pan.  The floor area behind the front seats had about an inch of standing water in it, but it wasn't horrible.  The area behind that (under the wooden box things) has a fair amount of rust.  But I just want a nice driver, never a show car.  

As James said, how does it run?  Is it a good driver today?  

What about the soft top?  Take off the hard top and see if you and the owner can open the soft top.   While you are at it, see if you can pour a cup of water into the drain holes on either side of the soft top storage box and see where the water comes out.

The missing piece of chrome from the back of the car is $45 new from the MB Classic Center.  (I think that is the correct price, it might be a little more, but it wasn't outrageous)

Good luck!  If it runs well then I don't think the price is bad.

[benzportland]

I notice you emphasize "Original" as an important favorable fact in considering this car, so my comments apply if you truly want the car original.  I am not nearly as knowledgeable as most here, but have recently purchased my 65 230sl and have been sorting it out and pricing things.  First, I would suggest having the seller provide you with the data sheet from MB Classic Center.  This will tell you what was original to the car.  

The steering wheel, if it is correct and the center pad also needed to be replaced, is about 800 USD.  I would say that this one is pretty far beyond feasible repair.  If it needs sunvisors (and guessing by the condition of the steering wheel it might) then another $750 for correct ones, repros are available though for less than half that.  It looks like some trim is missing from the hardtop.  Chrome pieces run anywhere from 100 - 200 USD and up to two or three thousand depending on the piece.  If the grill surround is new, it is likely a reproduction as those run about $1,500 at least for a new original.  The repros look okay and cost about half that, but they tend to crack easily especially if not mounted correctly.  Original stereos which work can be had for about 300 USD or so if you do some shopping, but the car does not have an antenna it seems.  That makes me wonder if it was originally "radio delete" like mine, and if so, you have other things to consider in terms of keeping it original.  The interior vinyl looks pretty bad.  It looks like it was not cut and / or applied correctly to the dash, and I am not sure the material itself is anywhere close to anything originally used.  Whether the car originally had vinyl or leather, I would guess about $3,500 at least to get it restored correctly.

Gee I just spent about $7,000 USD on this car and that's really a low estimate, and addresses nothing mechanical (brakes, fuel lines, head, radiator, etc etc).  I would guess she could easily eat about $15,000 just to make her mostly original and mechanically sound.  And, that does not include a paint job, which if done properly, is going to cost at least $5,000 or $6,000.  At the very least, if the hardtop is correct color, I believe the tire wheels are supposed to match, and this seemingly "easy" job can cost easily run about $1,000.  Add the cost of shipping, and you are getting closer to $35,000.....[:0]

[pinchechris]

crappy paint at that!  Run!!!

[Bob G MN]

MB113

Based on the rust  that you can see you may have lots of hidden problems here.  Fixing rust can be very expensive and if you don't take care of all of it repainting etc can be a short turm solution.  
It may cost you more than $20,000 to get it right so think of that and maybe you want to buy a car that is in better condition as it may cost you less.

Bob

[bpossel]

Dont buy!  Pass!!!
Pick another one with no rust!
If you can see surface rust, then there is rust under it.
Also, the undercoating is hiding more rust, almost a sure thing!
Pass!
Bob

[jameshoward]

You may know what people say about opinions...and if you don't, everyone has one.

I think you should follow that advice here that says get someone to take a look at the car. See if anyone lives close enough who you can pay expenses to and see what they find.

For $13K, you aren't going to get a near perfect car, but provided what you show here is the worst of what there is - i.e. provided the soft top is OK and the hardtop - you could have a basis for negotiation with the owner. Some of the prices for parts mentioned here are a little high; way too high at times. You can certainly pay MB prices for original parts if you like, but there are other suppliers; look at www.sls-hh.de for ideas of costs, and there are always steering wheels on ebay. Always.

You also need to consider the shipping costs. I shipped my car from Baltimore to Bremerhaven and can help you with a good shipper. It's not as expensive as you might think, but there are taxes. Which ever car you get, you can't dodge these costs. Point is that the taxes on a more expensive car are greater, so that reduces the money you have to spend. Also, there is a hell of a lot you can do on these cars yourself using the expertise on this site. I agree that welding new panels is probably a stretch if you aren't a welder, but panels are not earth-shatteringly expensive and a decent metal shop could do the work for you. I've had a lot done to my car, but most of it by me. (Do a search for 'TUV' and read my thread - you will have the same problems I had in Germany).

So, here's my opinion. Cees wrote once that it's best to buy the very best car you can afford. (This assumes the car is priced correctly). It's actually good information though. I spent $13K on my car not including shipping costs. It was far from perfect and I've done a LOT of work, but I've enjoyed most of it a great deal. Some things are difficult, but the information on here constantly amazes me plus some people know much more than is healthy! They are a most helpful and knowledgeable bunch so don't be afraid of doing some work yourself. I think parts of the car look like $hite, but others look good. For $13K what do you expect, especially when you read other recent threads that talk about cars going for $95K? I wouldn't be put off too quickly by the serious perfectionists albeit that I have much respect for their views and cars. I was not in a position to get a near perfect restoration done or buy such a car. Your position may be similar. So, do a bit more digging, see if there is anyone who lives nearby who can help (use the fancy map on the homepage perhaps) and don't be too put off who obsess about originality when viewing a $13K car!

Good luck.

JH

[perry113]

The more I look at the pictures the more the car scares me. I would continue to look for something better.

Trying to repair the rust correctly will more than likely end up something like this:
rear fenders and inner fender wells
inner and out rockers
replacement of the poorly patched up floors
ft lower bumper supports and rear inner & valance
and all the other unknown spots you will find

The cost? More than you can imagine. And we haven't even touched upon engine, fuel system, transmssion, suspension and trim items.

Better to spend $35,000 on good solid driver than buy this car for $13,000 and thinking spending $20,000 will make it right.

Good luck in your search.
Peter Perry
1965 230SL

[MBhundertdreizehn]

Thanks again for all your opinions and answers, you know I really appreciate all your opinions. It`s really hard for me to find find a nice but not perfect Pagoda, especially because I don`t know any owners here in my town to ask them about what to look for on Pagoda`s and so on. Now I will try to give the best answers to your questions... And sorry for my delay, because I wasn` able to answer sooner.

Douglas, with original I meaned that the car is a matching number, that previous owner had this car for a long time and such things, of course some parts were replaced... Thanks:;

J Huber and others, you know I`m looking for a driving Pagoda, that is not perfect but decent, you know something that I would be able to enjoy right now and then restore it of course. Yes I`m sure that the paint job was made quickly and far from good, it`s really sad, because it would look better without bad paint of course. After a season I owuld do the restoration of course and also what this car deserves...

RWMASTELL thank you also for your opinion, yes I know that the car is not FULLY original, it has some new parts, but for sure the engine, transmission and main things are really original. The car wasn`t bumped and the owner that bought it from 1970 when he was studying had this car for really long time, but now he said to me that the car is standing in garage and he want that someone would enjoy it, it` really a fair man I think. Yes, the owner have original papers, manuals, even the documentation from the port when it was bringed to USA.

[MBhundertdreizehn]

Scoot, yes the car is in good driving condition, it has a new battery instaled, all lights are working, brakes were redone, the only bad thing that he said to me that once or twice flying wheel- clutch slipped.

Benzportland, for the rust on rocker panels I`m not so worried, because I know one very good car metal worker, who would fix for me. Yes the main thing is that I would need to redone all the paint on the car with new one and sometimes it`s easier to do on old paint then on the new one, that is bad...

[Douglas]

Primoz,

I concur with Rodd about a possible front end collision. Generally, a new grill and one new headlight are a pretty strong sign that it was in a front end collision. Check the bonnet. If it's the original bonnet, that will at least tell you that even if it was hit the damage was contained to the perimeter of the body.

Take a look at the other thread in this forum on a car that just sold for $13.5K in Virginia. I think that will tell you what kind of values are out there. It seemed significantly better than your prospect for essentially the same price.

[Mike Hughes]

Bingo!  What Douglas Kim said!  Keep looking!

[glennard]

Don't you just hate it - When your flying wheel-clutch slips!   Those slippery flywheels could- Make your day.  I've had 6 lobe distributors in a 4 cylinder car and other automotive advances.  Never had a fly wheel slip.  Had e'm loose teeth, but never slip.  Anybody else ever had a slipping f w-clutch?

Also, expect about 2 days min to free up the wiper shafts.
RUN
      RUN
            RUN