Author Topic: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?  (Read 16417 times)

Mark280SL

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Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« on: July 23, 2008, 17:39:53 »
While searching on things in the forums I wanted to learn more about I have come across references on more than one occasion that our car's are "hand made" or "mostly hand built".

When I do searches to try and find out more about exactly what was hand made/built I'm not finding much of substance.

To those of you who may have verifiable knowledge of what was hand "built/made" or the details of the overall manufacturing process I'm sure it would be very interesting to hear about for many of us. I had assumed these cars (especially by the late sixties) were built on the assembly line production technique. Is that not so?  ......And yes I assume the headlight notches were done by hand, but that is a relatively small detail all things considered.... what else?

Anyone know the real story and how much of the car was really "hand made" ?  

« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 19:05:51 by Mark280SL »
Mark

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 22:34:40 »
I think daily factory production output figures would be a good indicator of how much of a car is "hand-built". I don't know what 113 figures are but I know that the 111 figures were ubsurdly low. Something like 10-14 cars a day (or about 2000 to 3000/year). Those would have to be mostly "hand-built".
Wallace
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Richard Madison

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 02:14:06 »
From what I've read, from a visit and tour of the factory in 1964, by examining the work on the car, (and maybe a little wishful thinking,) I believe much of the final "details" were hand done.

Seat Covers were produced on a machine but the final fitting and stapling was hand done; the aluminum parts (doors, hood, trunk lid)  were machine stamped oversize with final fitting by hand ending with hand grinding; the wood trim was finished, polished, and fitted by hand.  

I watched seats being installed by a "man" who fitted and tightened each into place. I believe the inside trim was final-trimmed and hand fitted into place.

Of course, men were swarming all over the cars as they moved slowly down the line, guiding the engine in, attaching the hoses, electrical, fitting the windshield. Not sure if this is considered "hand made" or just that they didn't have machines to all the steps.

There is still some 'hand work' done on today's cars but it's mostly  smoothing out the work done by the welding robots or the paint machine.

Richard M, NYC

Highest 113 production was 1969, about 8,000 cars or 21 per day. Other model cars were rolling along the factory line at the same time but still few enough to do a lot of hand work.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 02:20:29 by 280SL71 »
1969 280 SL, Tunis Beige, Euro Model (Italy).

Robert_F

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 20:07:05 »
Are you saying you were in a Mercedes factory watching W113's being built on the line in 1964?  How did you happen to be there?

quote:
Originally posted by 280SL71

From what I've read, from a visit and tour of the factory in 1964, by examining the work on the car, (and maybe a little wishful thinking,) I believe much of the final "details" were hand done.

Seat Covers were produced on a machine but the final fitting and stapling was hand done; the aluminum parts (doors, hood, trunk lid)  were machine stamped oversize with final fitting by hand ending with hand grinding; the wood trim was finished, polished, and fitted by hand.  

I watched seats being installed by a "man" who fitted and tightened each into place. I believe the inside trim was final-trimmed and hand fitted into place.

Of course, men were swarming all over the cars as they moved slowly down the line, guiding the engine in, attaching the hoses, electrical, fitting the windshield. Not sure if this is considered "hand made" or just that they didn't have machines to all the steps.

There is still some 'hand work' done on today's cars but it's mostly  smoothing out the work done by the welding robots or the paint machine.

Richard M, NYC

Highest 113 production was 1969, about 8,000 cars or 21 per day. Other model cars were rolling along the factory line at the same time but still few enough to do a lot of hand work.



peterm

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 10:30:43 »
Richard has a glorious history and I don't doubt he was there.  If you ever get a chance to meet him you may determine he was also present for the invention of the wheel, but he's still not convinced the earth is round.

Richard Madison

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 16:00:48 »
Robert:

In the mid 1960's, I was in Bavaria as a guest of the US Army. When the time came to return to the Land of the Big Apple, Uncle Sam (the US Government) told me I could ship a car home with no import duties and no transport charges...a good deal...so I bought a 1964 220SE which, I must add, was priced at the deep discount given to US Forces personnel and diplomats. The cost was about $8,000 in the US but only $4,000 to me.

When I arrived to pick up the car up at the factory near Stuttgart, a Mercedes gent wearing a long white shop coat gave me a guided tour of the assembly line. We walked from one end of the line to the other alongside various Mercedes being built that day including 230SL's.

The Line was a miracle of efficiency with the engines riding along a roof railing and the cars moving along a track on the floor. The specific engine designated for a car arrived overhead at the exact moment as the car reached the spot below. The engine moved down the rail and was slid right into the car.

At the end of the tour, I was escorted through a pair of doors to a small rotunda, and there, in the soft glow of several spot lights, was my newly built car, appearing like some royal carriage on exhibition.

The final touch was the sign they put in the rear windshield as I drove off. I was told to keep the speed under 50 mph for the first 200 miles. The sign was to explain to the Porches and other speedy cars why a Mercedes was not going 200km per hour on the Autobahn. The sign read "Breaking In" in English and German.

Richard M, NYC
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 16:03:42 by 280SL71 »
1969 280 SL, Tunis Beige, Euro Model (Italy).

Garry

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 17:44:43 »
That is a great story Richard and I bet you are the rare if only person on this forum that can make that claim.

I bet you wished that it had been that 230SL that was yours at the end of the line now and that you could claim that you have owned it from new!
Enjoyed
Garry
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 17:52:30 by Garry »
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Mark280SL

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2008, 14:39:56 »
Wow Richard that must have been a great experience, not to mention the price and the free shipping. Opportunities and experiences like that don't come along often.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 21:04:14 by Mark280SL »
Mark

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 19:45:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL

Wow Richard that must have been a great experience, not to mention the price the the free shipping. Opportunities and experiences like that don't come along often.



Well, the shipping was hardly "free"; it was courtesy of the U.S. Taxpayers.  Hardly "free" either for Richard; they don't and didn't exactly pay high wages for military service.   He earned it, even if duty in Bavaria was preferable to being an "adviser" in some jungle hot spot.  The least the U.S. Army could do is make life a little more comfortable with shipping personal goods home (even if you bought them while on tour), and providing a discount to make up for the abysmal pay.

As we all need to remember, then and now, "Thank You for your service".
Michael Salemi
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Mark280SL

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 21:42:28 »
Those of us who also served and did not get free shipping say "you're welcome"  :)

quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

quote:
Originally posted by Mark280SL

Wow Richard that must have been a great experience, not to mention the price the the free shipping. Opportunities and experiences like that don't come along often.



Well, the shipping was hardly "free"; it was courtesy of the U.S. Taxpayers.  Hardly "free" either for Richard; they don't and didn't exactly pay high wages for military service.   He earned it, even if duty in Bavaria was preferable to being an "adviser" in some jungle hot spot.  The least the U.S. Army could do is make life a little more comfortable with shipping personal goods home (even if you bought them while on tour), and providing a discount to make up for the abysmal pay.

As we all need to remember, then and now, "Thank You for your service".

« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 08:48:50 by Mark280SL »
Mark

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 09:10:44 »
Mark,

Did you ask for free shipping?  My aunt (U.S. Army) had her Benz shipped back with her personal goods.  So did my brother in law (Air Force), though it was a Volvo!  Criminy, he even shipped back a BT Cast Iron Telephone Booth!  (abuse of the system and don't think I didn't tell him!)  Of course they were officers...

Nonetheless thanks to you too, even if Uncle Sam didn't take care of you the way he did others.  In general our treatment of all veterans is subject to some amount of criticism.
Michael Salemi
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1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
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Bob G MN

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2008, 10:07:57 »
I was living in Stuttgart in from 1967 - 1969 and visited the factory in Sindelfingen  a few times where the 113 was being assembled.  Much more of the work on the 113 was handwork than on the other vehicles but certainly not all although there was a lot of hand checking of the mechanical work.  I do remember seeing a worker working on the leather inside the glove box and doing it by hand.

Bob

Mark280SL

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2008, 10:29:03 »
Thanks Bob it's very interesting to hear the first hand accounts and learn more.

quote:
Originally posted by Bob G MN

I was living in Stuttgart in from 1967 - 1969 and visited the factory in Sindelfingen  a few times where the 113 was being assembled.  Much more of the work on the 113 was handwork than on the other vehicles but certainly not all although there was a lot of hand checking of the mechanical work.  I do remember seeing a worker working on the leather inside the glove box and doing it by hand.

Bob

Mark

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2008, 17:57:03 »
Yes by many accounts the W113 SL was the last of the breed other than the 280SE converible and coupes and 600 models to be almost hand assembled car.  When the 350SL arrived in late 1971, more mechanized and American luxury had replaced the W113's welded-on nose and fenders with bolt on fenders and more luxury appointed options like built-in Air Conditioning and Mercedes-Benz first V8 SL. Though suspension systems got better, the hand made craftmanship was lost.

Early brochures show the soft tops being hand assembled and inspectors inspecting the body for seam welds to the nose and fit and finish of the aluminum doors, hood, and trunk.

Mercedes-Benz workforce also changed and it would take almost two decades to recover the luxury craftmanship of the Mercedes-Benz Marque.

Bob Geco
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 03:21:43 by 280SL71 »

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2008, 21:06:35 »
I thought it was cool when I redid my glovebox to find #154 (had to edit this after I checked old MB-Tex number) had been there ... and when I redid my kickpanels, same number! I remember Ed Cave left his headlamp assembler/inspector's mark on his restoration.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 11:01:39 by J. Huber »
James
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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2008, 01:24:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber

I thought it was cool when I redid my glovebox to find #117.../...

These are the last three digits of the body No (Aufbau No)  Production Number (ProduktionsNo) that can be seen on the data card or the stamped metal plate located near the hood safety catch.

 Also Stamped in to hood (bonnet), soft top compartment lid and H/T (if present) is the Body number (Aufbau No).

Marking various parts with crayon, stamping etc. was done to keep track and ensure that components ended up in the right car on the assembly line.

The Chassis No was assigned to each car at a later time, thus Body No and Production No were used.

Note: Edited to correpond with facts found out later (see above)

.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 10:15:18 by mbzse »
/Hans S

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2008, 08:45:04 »
Look at the pictures in the topic "Door Panel Repair" by John Lewenauer (thelews) and you will see the number "593" in crayon on the backside of the door card before he cut out the bad section and let in his repair section.  Hopefully the rest of the trim and body components on that car are marked with the same "Aufbau" number.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 08:48:05 by Mike Hughes »
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waqas

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2008, 10:00:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Hughes

Look at the pictures in the topic "Door Panel Repair" by John Lewenauer (thelews) and you will see the number "593" in crayon on the backside of the door card before he cut out the bad section and let in his repair section.  Hopefully the rest of the trim and body components on that car are marked with the same "Aufbau" number.



Wait, I thought this number was the inspector number, not the chassis number ??

My body number ends with 1537, and various body parts are stamped with this: hood, trunk hinge, soft-top lid, hard top.

When I took apart my interior, I found the same number "79" scrawled on everything related to leather -- door panels, kinder seat halves, b-pillar leather-covered panels, glove-box, etc.

However, my wood pieces all had the number "476" scrawled underneath.

Supposedly they had different inspectors for different things (leather guru, wood guru, etc).

Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2008, 11:00:50 »
In my case, the number on the panels is different from the various Aufbau numbers as well. I looked this morning and my crayon numbers are 154. Body numbers all end in 881.
James
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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2008, 11:22:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by waqas

quote:
Originally posted by Mike HughesHopefully the rest of the trim and body components on that car are marked with the same "Aufbau" number


Wait, I thought this number was the inspector number .../... Supposedly they had different inspectors for different things (leather guru, wood guru, etc)

Hmm, this is getting interesting...
They certainly had inspectors that marked various bolts, filling openings and such on the chassis with paint dots, red/blue/yellow. This was after final torquing of the bolts as well as after filling with oil etc.
The 190SL group have documented these dots/paint blotches well for the W121 type roadster (190SL), and I expect this esteemed W113 web group will in time do the same, as a unified effort, and put the result in our W113 technical manual.
Anyway, I suggest we should really dig deeper into the origin and meaning of these numbers behind body panels, glove box compartment etc.

.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 16:27:56 by mbzse »
/Hans S

waqas

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2008, 11:26:29 »
If we were really anal about this (but we're not, right??) we'd create an inspector database and then cross-list all our cars to find which inspectors worked on which cars.... then we could figure out the various shifts each inspector worked on, and then we could enter all this into our compendium of all things pagoda....  :D

Hey, its Friday and I'm bored, ok?   :mrgreen:

Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2008, 11:32:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by mbzse

... I expect this group will in time do the same, as a unified effort, and put the result in our W113 technical manual.
Anyway, I suggest we should really dig deeper into the origin and meaning of these numbers behind body panels, glove box compartment etc.



Oops, just saw your reply Hans!  I actually meant my post as a joke!  (no sarcasm or offence related to your reply).

Actually, now that I think of it, it would be great to document all the locations where these numbers exist, at the very least....
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 11:39:16 by waqas »
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

Mark280SL

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2008, 12:03:02 »
More knowledge is a good thing! so it would definitely be interesting and a great idea to get a definitive answer on the handwritten numbers, however, whatever they may indicate (my non expert guess is an indication of just a standard inspection like many things built in manufacturing settings get) I don't think it is also an answer to the hand made question.

So when thinking back to the original question and having read the comments so far It sounds like we could say our cars definitely had more hand fitting or detailing then other manufactured cars of the time but to say they were "hand made" ?  I'm not sure about that. I'm thinking older cars then ours like a high end Dusenburg which I understand were each custom-hand built from the frame up might qualify as hand made cars but hand fitting and detailing of some manufactured components of a car does not qualify something to be deemed "hand made" or does it?

quote:
Originally posted by waqas

quote:
Originally posted by mbzse

... I expect this group will in time do the same, as a unified effort, and put the result in our W113 technical manual.
Anyway, I suggest we should really dig deeper into the origin and meaning of these numbers behind body panels, glove box compartment etc.



Oops, just saw your reply Hans!  I actually meant my post as a joke!  (no sarcasm or offence related to your reply).

Actually, now that I think of it, it would be great to document all the locations where these numbers exist, at the very least....

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 12:33:35 by Mark280SL »
Mark

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2008, 13:20:54 »
I was in the garage just now rummaging around and noticed one of my door panels. It looks like there is a signature of some sort in addition to the inspector number:

Download Attachment: IMG_5552-small.jpg
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Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

Mike Hughes

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Re: Hand made Pagoda's fact or fiction ?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2008, 10:44:28 »
Another possible reason for the hand written crayon numbers on the back of the door cards could be that various uphostered interior trim pieces might have been made in "sets" with coverings all cut from the same roll of M-B Tex or matching hides.  The components of these "sets" would be job numbered alike by the craftsmen (and women!) in the trim shop before being sent over to the final assembly line.  

This "job numbering" was a fairly common practice back in the days of coachbuilt vehicles.  When I took apart my 1934 M.G. L-1 Salonette back in the early 1980's every interior trim piece from door coverings to armrests to seats, and even the individual sections of leather coverings all had the same number crayoned on the reverse sides.  Likewise all the wood window trim, dashboard and door caps.  All the components had to be made up specifically for this body (good thing, too, as the driver's door was 3/4 inch longer than the passenger door!) and the job number was the same as the job number for the body itself, which had no relationship to the chassis number to which that body was eventually mated. (Very much like the "Aufbau" number has no relationship to the chassis number assigned to a Pagoda body shell as it entered final production.)
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