Author Topic: labor cost  (Read 18984 times)

piddler

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labor cost
« on: August 06, 2008, 05:10:54 »
There is a local mechanic that has worked at MB dealerships but has opened his own shop. He has a good reputation and has checked out my 230 SL. I have talked to him about maybe doing an engine rebuild at some time in the future.

What I need is information on estimated time (man-hours) to do this job. His books do not go that far back.

Any help would be appreciated, Pete

JamesL

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 06:13:27 »
Tell him it shouldn't take more than 6 hours and he should quote on that basis  ;)

Just kidding

And welcome!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 06:13:58 by Tosh »
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mdsalemi

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 06:51:06 »
Piddler,

Congratulations on finding someone reputable?

Something to think about before you entrust an engine rebuild to a man in a garage--

Check out the websites of the two well known and well respected engine rebuilders that specialize in MB engines and have a long history with the 3 W113 engines:

http://www.mercedesengines.net/ and
http://www.noels.com/

While many can and do rebuild engines on the bench in their garage--professional, semi-professional, and amateur, there are enough potential pitfalls to cause one pause for sure.  The above mentioned pros have seen it all, and can deal with it all with a lot of specialized equipment that one doesn't have unless you rebuild engines as a primary line of business.  I've seen engines apart in what I would call "substandard" environments and it just didn't give me a warm and cozy feeling.  Personally I also can't grasp the concept of a mechanic doing a brake job at 7AM, changing a muffler at 10AM, an oil change at noon, and onto "that engine rebuild" after lunch.  Many don't share that opinion however--that's just me.  Judge for yourself.

Examples:  minor cracks in a casting, or "decking" a cylinder head.  In the first example, unless you go through a process to find them, you may not see them, thus may not repair them, if possible.  In the second example, I've seen and heard of cylinder head planing where it simply wasn't done properly--it isn't flat.  Your average Joe Mechanic will send it out to a local machine shop.  To them it's just another cylinder head.

The above mentioned pros do not, by any means, rebuild every MB engine in the USA.  There have been plenty of successful amateur rebuilds, and rebuilds by mechanics just like you are talking about.

But, you would do yourself a favor by reading both websites in detail and speaking with both proprietors AND your mechanic before undertaking a massive investment such as a rebuild.

BTW, your mechanic generally receives jobber pricing so he too can make a few dollars off the deal besides the labor for removal and reinstallation.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 09:00:34 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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mcama

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 14:50:23 »
Pete,

Having the MB factory labor guide books going back to the 1950s, I can offer you some labor times specific to the 230sl. R&R of a shortblock (complete lower end, from pan to top of block) will run 35 hours. Labor for a complete teardown, fitting of new pistons, head work, boring, honing, etc, reassembly and reinstallation is given at 55.6 hours. P/S, automatic transmission, and A/C all extra!

Keep in mind these times are what was provided by the factory for dealerships to reference when these cars were NEW. These times do not take into account frozen fasteners, aged components, and other pitfalls that are likely to be encountered. In short, expect a minimum of these times with the potential for the actual time to easily double for a thorough job that attends to all that is in need. Such is not limited to cooling system and lines, various other rubber bits in the engine bay, component level cleaning, any wiring that needs attending to, and other jobs that are facilitated with the removal of the motor, etc. etc. I think you get where I am going with this.

This is a rabbit hole that can plunge quite deep. Define your expectations and limits carefully. It is important that you and your mechanic are congruent throughout the process.

On that note, scrutinize your mechanic carefully. If he will be rebuilding the motor "in house" make sure he is equipped to do so. Anytime I undertake a full rebuild, I clean my shop to near clean room conditions. A spec of dust can ruin your day. Proper tools and proper environment are a must. They are as essential as the skills and knowledge required. Also, his machinist is critical, too. As Mike said, you want a machinist that knows your components and which your bits are not aligned with Detroit iron comparisons.

Lastly, be wary of a rebuilding house that uses custom 1/2 repair size main bearings. I have had a bit of experience with motors coming from one of the sites listed below. Sure they were decent motors, but far from exceptional. 20 years ago things were a bit different, but as of late my experience left a good bit to be desired. You get what you pay for.  Personally, I do not want any OEM parts in my motors. The day of a quality OEM is long gone. Stars on my parts, please.

As Mike wrote, do your homework. Become educated on the scope of the project and what is entailed. The more you know about the various stages and processes, the better you will be able to ensure you are getting fair value for your investment as well as maximizing the gains to be expected from such.

If you seek to simply pay and receive a wholly repaired solution with a minimum of involvement, I suggest you contact Mercedes Classic Center in Irvine, CA.

mdsalemi

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2008, 16:13:16 »
...one other thing...

As a conversation on Sunday with Dr. Benz (Dan Caron) revealed, some 230SL engine parts (pistons very specifically) are getting harder and harder to get.  You'll see that with higher prices for M127 motors versus M130 rebuild pricing.

Again do your homework!

Stars on my parts?  The Classic Center sends a lot of stuff out...and the suppliers listed also supply rebuilds to MB dealers!  It's pretty hard to keep track of it all thus you need to rely a bit on reputations...
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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mcama

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 18:48:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

...one other thing...

As a conversation on Sunday with Dr. Benz (Dan Caron) revealed, some 230SL engine parts (pistons very specifically) are getting harder and harder to get.  You'll see that with higher prices for M127 motors versus M130 rebuild pricing.




Just got a quote in from MBC (Classic Center) for a slew of Ponton bits. Makes most 113 parts appear commonplace and rather affordable.

On a serious note, for the parts of lesser demand, if you know you will be wanting it, it would be prudent to stock it while you can still get it (rubber bits excepted). Between price escalation and increasing number of NLA items, it pays to stockpile what you know you will need down the road. Like the pistons Dan, through Mike, mentioned, many items are becoming cost prohibitive to the average hobbyist. M189 distributor caps are a prime example. Last I checked they were around $1600 list. Before they went NLA and recently re-issued, they were around $300. Potentially better investment than the stock market. Another example, the center vent boot in rubber for the w123 is over $230 as of this week (was under $75 two years ago). They may be expensive, but better than the dreaded NLA; e.g. the metal oil gauge supply line for the ponton that I was informed of today.

quote:

Again do your homework!

Stars on my parts?  The Classic Center sends a lot of stuff out...and the suppliers listed also supply rebuilds to MB dealers!  


It's pretty hard to keep track of it all thus you need to rely a bit on reputations...




Classic Center is the best way to fly. Service, price, all around none can touch them. MBCA discount to for the DIYer. I have come across no better supplier in my over 20 years of enjoying these cars. Having them as my parts supplier has removed the largest headache of being in this business. I can not sing high enough praise for Tom Hanson.

I have not heard of Metric rebuilding anything for MBUSA, can't speak for Noel's. Local dealers have the option to pick suppliers to some degree, but just because a dealer endorses a particular supplier, it does not mean that it is the best option available. Call me a cynic if you will, but If it seems like a really good deal, a corner must be getting cut somewhere. Price the motor rebuild parts at MB list and see what it comes to without labor. Assume an arbitrary 40% (very high volume shop discount) off on the parts, recalculate, and then factor in labor. Now, try to figure out how these outfits can offer such prices and keep their doors open. Then again, I guess everyone's criteria for "best option" varies. Personally I want to see all genuine parts, from Benz, with the Stars on them in my motors. Lurking on this forum for a bit, I feel confident that all here know the difference between OEM and genuine parts?

WRT reputations, I tend to be wary. Many companies out there have been resting on the laurels of the fruits of long past labors and staff. Still, many are well established and still act with honor and integrity; those are the good ones. However, a number of "long trusted" outfits are former shadows of the quality of what they used to stand for. The alternator and starter shop I formerly used is a perfect example. They are now all about volume and quality has fallen to the wayside. Sad. They used to be upstanding with good attention to detail. Related to that note, I have been quite impressed with the quality and pricing of MB's remanned starter program. If only 190sl generators were still affordable.  ;)

Hope I did not ruffle any feathers, it was not my intention. Just aiming to offer the perspective of one who has been in the trenches long enough to call them home.

Mathieu







mdsalemi

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2008, 06:05:01 »
Mathieu,

I think you have might confused "OEM" with "Aftermarket".  An OEM part is an identical part made by the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) and sold through channels other than the dealer or in our case, the Classic Center.  An aftermarket part is a copy or duplicate part made by someone other than he who made it originally for Mercedes either or under a new remanufacturing agreement.  There are many 113 specific parts only available from the dealer/Classic Center; there are a wider variety of OEM parts that are shared among many cars available both from the dealer/Classic Center and through 3rd party channels, and some reproduction or aftermarket parts as well.

For example, in pistons, Mahle is the OEM for many MB engines.  You can buy Mahle pistons through 3rd parties or through MB.  If they are the same they are the same--just the distribution method changes and often the price.

Bosch of course is another example.  You can buy a starter, alternator, relay, etc. through the MB dealer or the Classic Center or you can buy the OEM identical product from any number of places--if they are the same, they are the same.  The MB box doesn't make it any better.  Many Bosch parts I've bought over the years have come in the gray box when purchased from MB; and in the yellow Bosch box when purchased 3rd party.  They come from the same place.  They take a different route to your garage.

K&K here in Michigan makes sheet metal aftermarket for 190's and 113's.  Some they sell to MB who in turn puts their labels on it and sells it as a factory part.  Sometimes the aftermarket becomes the OEM.  The reproduction sun visors available from someone on this site are better than the originals at a lower cost.

Of course there's a big difference between a bauble you bolt on and engine internals--which is why I leave it to the pros.  Yes I'm sure Noels and Metric have at some time in the past, made a mistake.  So has Mercedes.

I think your issue is not with OEM parts but with aftermarket parts.  But you have to put up with a bunch of nonsense--I've had OEM parts from MB not fit and improperly specified, just as I have had with aftermarket...I bought window regulator kits aftermarket they appear to be identical to the MB ones.  I bought a dipstick from MB, goodness knows what car it was from--not a 113 I've ever seen.  Ditto for the passenger side door pull.  Seems there's a lot of dice-rolling no matter where you go.

...which points to earlier comments I made on earlier threads about who you are dealing with: it isn't how well they serve that is a measure, it is how they deal with a problem that you can measure the quality of a vendor.

It should be noted of course that MB stands behind their parts, and Tom Hanson is an old friend of this group, long before he was with the Classic Center.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 07:21:54 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Benz Dr.

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2008, 12:02:33 »
I buy almost nothing directly from MB. I can but I find I don't need too. MB makes mistakes just like anyone else can.
230SL pistons are now about $1,800.00 for a set. I used to sell them for $950.00 - not anymore. I got the last two sets available from my supplier and now we all have to scratch to look for more pieces. I warned everyone that this would happen and no one seemed to believe me or care. Your suppier guy handels more money but he isn't making any more. 40% discount off list? I wish!

I usually figure in about 40 hours for a long block. Engine ancillaries, cleaning parts, plating, injection pump rebuild, ignition componets, machining and parts are extra. Every engine is different - some need more things than others but it tends to level out over many rebuilds. Most 130 engines are running about $7,500.00 with 230SL engines more than that due to exspensive pistons. All the other parts are roughly the same price.
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Cees Klumper

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2008, 15:04:53 »
As I recall, the engine rebuild that Joe did (and I helped with) back in 2003 took about 40 hours - that was 'long block' and no ancilliaries. Cost of the parts, all of which I got through Will Samples in Texas, and machine work, which included all new Mahle pistons, cylinders rebore, new main bearings and connecting rod bearings, all new valves and a couple of new valve seats, new oil pump and tach drive gears, and miscellaneous other new parts, was a bit shy of $2,000. That was 5 years ago.
Cees Klumper
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mcama

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2008, 17:48:14 »
Mike, et al,

This is an issue that has been receiving a good bit of face time as of late. The terms OE, OEM, and aftermarket are often misunderstood and used incorrectly. It is my aim to shed clarity on this matter.

To begin let's define the terms:

OE: literally means Original Equipment. This is the same thing as a dealer (or MBC) supplied genuine part. An OE MB part will have a Star on it.

OEM: translates literally to Original Equipment Manufacturer. In a nutshell, these are parts produced by the same manufacturer of OE parts, but it does not guarantee that the OEM part is the same quality or even the same part as an OE part. I will expound on this later in the post.

Aftermarket: A third party producer of parts that is independent of the vehicle manufacturer. Bilstein is a prime example of a common aftermarket manufacturer.

So, are all OEM parts the same as OE? Is that Bosch remanufactured starter from India the same as the remanufactured Bosch unit sold to you in a MB box from the Classic Center? What about OEM Bosch spark plug wires vs. MB genuine? For that matter a Phoenix branded motor mount should be identical to the same sold through the dealer, no?

Fact is, no! They are, more often than not, different. 20 years ago the differences were often negligible, if any. Reality is today that the OEM part is often (not always) of lesser quality than the OE part. There are exceptions, and Mike picked one of them with referencing Mahle pistons (This is assuming we are referencing German made Mahle pistons as opposed to their Brazilian made cousins). While these exceptions do exist, it is important to not assume that the exception is the rule.

Let's explore an example more closely. Motor mounts. The OEM under scrutiny here will be Phoenix. An OE mount, will have a Star on it, MB part number, and the relevant color dots. What about those OEM mounts? They, too, have the MB part number on them and sometimes the colored dots. However, notice that where the Star was it has been ground off? Is that only because the part is being sold as an OEM? Truth of the matter is no; the part is physically different than what the MB dealer will sell you. What is different? The dimensions are the same and it looks identical excepting the ground off Star. These mounts with ground off Stars failed quality control for MB's standards. in general the rubber did not pass muster. However, they are good enough to still meet a lesser criteria and can hence be sold as an OEM. Bullocks you say? Having replaced an unfathomable amount of mounts over the years I can say without doubt that the genuine mount will almost always outlast the OEM mount by several orders of magnitude. Example: I have a client who is a most aggressive driver. OEM mounts are fortunate to last 6 months with him (it took a few sets to convince him to try the OE mounts). Once he switched to the genuine article, he has passed two years without any issue from his mounts. Driving style has not changed, if anything, he drives his car even harder than before. Proof enough for me, yet, I continue to see the consistent results on a regular basis thus reassuring this conclusion.

OK, so what about distributor caps, rotors, wires? Caps and rotors all seem to be consistently similar to the genuine article. I have not noted any significant difference. Wires are a different story. Tom Hanson can expound in detail the differences between an OEM set and OE; the differences are considerably more than just the box. For the older cars where MB does not sell wire sets, I purchase the individual components from MB and build my own wires. Since doing this I have yet to see a wire fail prematurely. Bremi, Beru, and Bosch OEMs; all I have had issues with in the past 10 or so years on multiple occasions. Things have changed in this arena, I see it on a daily basis.

Starters and alternators, too. "Bosch in the box" as I call them, have declined sharply in longevity. I bet a number of folks on this forum still have original alternators and/or starters in their car. Funny how the recent Bosch rebuilts seem to last 2-3 years in the daily drivers I come across. Buy the same article through MB and, voila, they are lasting considerably longer. Sad, still, is that a 35 year old starter and alternator will often outperform most of its contemporaries. When costs are cut, workmanship is one of the first items to suffer.

Same with diesel fuel injectors. When Bosch rebuilt their injectors in Germany, they were often well within spec and with narrow tolerances. Now, it is the luck of the draw with the India rebuilds. Get an injector from MB they are back at the proper spec. For a matched set (personally, I like them to be within a couple of bar from one another), you would need to re-calibrate them on your own or test many units.

When I examine the cost difference and the time involved, I find that in most instances it is cost effective to use the genuine article over an OEM. Fact is, I would make considerably more profit pushing OEM parts in my shop. Looking at things in the long-term, I know that OEM will generally not last as long nor perform as well as the OE part. Making the best overall product is what this is all about, at least for me. Remember the adage: "penny wise and pound foolish". It is all a numbers dance; what combination will provide the most effective use over time in relation to cost and physical effort. Blind faith in OEMs will frustrate most serious car owners in the long run.

A quick note about aftermarket. Is all aftermarket bad? For those of you that run Bilstein shocks, you know the answer is no. However, most aftermarket is produced with the least expensive processes and a weak attitude towards quality control. All bets are off when dealing in the aftermarket arena. Some are great, others horrible. Choose carefully.

Does MB make defects, sure they do! It happens to everyone. However in the end, it is my experience that the genuine article almost always stands the best chance of lasting longest and of being the best quality out of the box. Secondary to that, if your MB genuine part should fail (assuming proper installation, of course) see what MB will do to reconcile that problem. Will the OEM supplier stand by his parts in the same way? I sincerely doubt it.

In summation, to each his own. Each person has his or her individual list of priorities and expectations. As a degreed engineer, I want things as they are meant to be with the product performing as designed. At this point, it is my personal and professional experience that the majority of OEMs can no longer be trusted implicitly and need to be thoroughly scrutinized before being installed. OE, OEM, and aftermarket parts all have their place. Not all OEMs are bad, and many can still be trusted, but to say that all OEMs are as good or the same as OE is a fallacy.


glennard

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2008, 08:03:41 »
Good post!! :)

Benz Dr.

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2008, 14:15:03 »
I don't know where you get your information but it sounds like a Classic Center ad.

I sell OEM parts and some are reproductions which is different than after market. In some cases there never was a part available from MB ( like the floor pans ) so I'm not sure what you would call those parts. Pricing aside, MB parts are exactly the same as OEM parts made by the same operations that supply MB with their parts. The actual company may be different than 40 years ago but the quality shouldn't be very different.

Are you trying to say that a Bilstien shock in a Bilstien box isn't as good as the same part in a MB box?
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Cees Klumper

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2008, 14:47:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by mcama

For the older cars where MB does not sell wire sets, I purchase the individual components from MB and build my own wires. Since doing this I have yet to see a wire fail prematurely. Bremi, Beru, and Bosch OEMs; all I have had issues with in the past 10 or so years on multiple occasions.


I can attest to having had a new Bosch wire set fail within 2 years ... Thanks for the clear and balanced post Mathieu.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 14:48:50 by cees klumper »
Cees Klumper
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66andBlue

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 00:00:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by mcama

 ... Motor mounts. The OEM under scrutiny here will be Phoenix. An OE mount, will have a Star on it .... What is different? The dimensions are the same and it looks identical excepting the ground off Star. These mounts with ground off Stars failed quality control for MB's standards. in general the rubber did not pass muster. However, they are good enough to still meet a lesser criteria and can hence be sold as an OEM. ....
... Sad, still, is that a 35 year old starter and alternator will often outperform most of its contemporaries.

Interesting analysis but I have some trouble following your logic.
 Because a company, Phoenix, sells OEM parts that were rejected by Mercedes [of course you do have proof for that statement, don't you?] you assume that Bosch, Beru, Mahle and all the others fall into the same category.   Since they sell OEM they MUST be worse, is that what you are advocating?
Indeed a 35 year old M-B most likely will outlast a 10 year old Daimler-Chrysler.
I believe it all depends on the level of quality control installed by these companies, and from all I know, that was not the best during the times when the company's name was Daimler-Chrysler.  
We can only hope that the situation will improve again.
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Garry

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 02:29:43 »
It operates the same way in the aircraft industry where the terms have some very important meanings and Certificate of Conformances (C of C's) is the key to the OE, OEM, OEM approved and what is sometimes classed as after market.
As MCAMA rightly pointed out the OE is the recognized original equipment supplier, in this case Mercedes Benz.  They, MB, can be both manufacture (of their own parts) and they will be classed as OM parts and have a MB stamping on them or they were manufactured by an approved parts supplier who will be known as an OEM and may also gain the MB logo under certain qualifications.  

Quality at the MB Parts Supplier will determined by audits (by MB) if the part manufactured are to gain the MB stamp of approval (and a C of C) and will bear a MB marking and P/N.  They may manufacture additional parts that do not gain C of C approval either because they fail Quality Control or the Part Manufacturer wishes to sell after market parts that will not necessarily have the level of quality demanded by MB and thus not allow their logo to be stamped on the item. I suspect that there is a period of time from first build that the Parts Manufacturer will have agreed not to enter the after market parts business so that only OM/OEM parts in the first few years of the vehicle being built will be available and sold (well thats the theory).

Thus it really will come down to a quality control level that either meets MB standards through audits and the supplier is an approved MB supplier and the parts sold thru the MB network and guaranteed by MB, or sold by the OEM but do not gain the MB guarantee of quality but only the manufacturers guarantee or the third level of after market that can be anyone that wished to produce look alike parts usually through reverse engineering of the original MB part. At each level the number of $$ is in proportion to the manufacturers relationship to MB. Full supplier and MB guarantee, lots of $$, OEM but no MB stamp of approval, middle level $$ and then the after market, usually the cheapest. They will also try to get their prices to as near to the OEM price as they think they can get away with.


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mdsalemi

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 06:13:28 »
Gee, I don't know how this morphed this way.

If anyone thinks that a Bosch part in a yellow box is somehow different than the identical box in a "factory" box, I would suggest one doesn't know the automotive industry or parts industry very well.  This is true for new parts, such as relays, and for remanufactured parts, such as starters and alternators.  This same logic extends across first, second and third tier suppliers as well.

Those wire set issues people speak about are not fair comparisons to anything--many years ago those $35 Bosch sets you buy in places were determined only to physically fit, not to be the right set.  Yes they fail because they are not the right part for our car.  Some marketing moron simply figured that since they fit, put the application in the data base.  They don't have the right wire or the right ends.  Don't be surprised when they don't work or fail prematurely--it isn't the right part!  You can get the correct parts--I have them--and I got them 3rd party because the the correct parts were NLA at the time.  Thankfully some Beru dealer was able to put them all together.  But you can buy a set for $35 at Pep Boys; it will fit but won't be right.

If someone is selling reject parts, then that is a different story entirely and speaks to the ethics of the company.  If someone is selling counterfeit parts, (pacific rim parts made to look like originals but substandard in quality, and branded with illegal labels) that also is another issue entirely.

At a recent trip to the Kennedy Space Center, an astronaut addressed the comical and oft-repeated urban legend of how the moon landing was done on a Hollywood sound stage.  "Yes", he said, "the moon landing could have been faked.  But it was simply easier to just go to the moon."

Well, similarly, in an assembly line fashion of remanufacturing, when a specific alternator is going through the process of rebuilding, the person rebuilding it rebuilds it according to the spec of that part, not of where the part is going or what color box it's going in; they don't even know that.  It's simply easier to adhere to one quality standard for one part.  Any other scenario makes no sense and it IS NOT what happens.

Just to confirm my suspicions, I also placed a call to Bilstein.  If the part number stamped onto the shock is the same, there is only one part-quality; they don't make different part qualities.  They did offer however, that when you buy their shocks on the aftermarket market (the market that Dan Caron is talking about), the warranty is lifetime.  If the shock comes through another channel, it is whatever that channel offers on it.  Bilstein does offer different shocks for OEM and for aftermarket--the operative word being different shocks, not different quality.  The aftermarket are usually indicated as Heavy Duty; the OEM is usually indicated as comfort.  So, you might have a slight difference in the road-feel or manners of a Bilstein bought through a dealer versus an aftermarket; but you will still have Bilstein quality if that's what you want.  When a manufacturer's name is on the box they are ever mindful of quality.

I also placed a call to a good friend of mine, a quality-control consultant to Mahle of all people.  Yes, they make pistons, rings, etc. in Michigan (St. Johns and Muskegon) not just in Brazil.  He confirmed that there is a manufacturing spec for a part; not for how the part might be distributed after manufacture.  They often don't know this on the factory floor.

Yes, overall, manufacturing quality has done downhill.  Bosch has factories all over the world, and what was once made in Germany is now made in India, Brazil, Mexico, Czech Republic...even those parts destined for the gray box and either cars on the line or parts to be sold at a dealer.

Did I mention that K&K's steel body panels are superior products?  Yes, Tim Kidder stamps them out of heavier gauge galvalume.  That's better than plain old steel.  What would you want on your car, given the choice, and seeing the effects of rust?

It's great to support our vendors.  But none of them have all the answers all the time.  They don't have all the parts all the time.  Working on, restoring and maintaining a car like ours takes more than one source, no matter who that source may be.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 15:43:12 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Benz Dr.

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 08:08:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by Garry

It operates the same way in the aircraft industry where the terms have some very important meanings and Certificate of Conformances (C of C's) is the key to the OE, OEM, OEM approved and what is sometimes classed as after market.
As MCAMA rightly pointed out the OE is the recognized original equipment supplier, in this case Mercedes Benz.  They, MB, can be both manufacture (of their own parts) and they will be classed as OM parts and have a MB stamping on them or they were manufactured by an approved parts supplier who will be known as an OEM and may also gain the MB logo under certain qualifications.  

Quality at the MB Parts Supplier will determined by audits (by MB) if the part manufactured are to gain the MB stamp of approval (and a C of C) and will bear a MB marking and P/N.  They may manufacture additional parts that do not gain C of C approval either because they fail Quality Control or the Part Manufacturer wishes to sell after market parts that will not necessarily have the level of quality demanded by MB and thus not allow their logo to be stamped on the item. I suspect that there is a period of time from first build that the Parts Manufacturer will have agreed not to enter the after market parts business so that only OM/OEM parts in the first few years of the vehicle being built will be available and sold (well thats the theory).

Thus it really will come down to a quality control level that either meets MB standards through audits and the supplier is an approved MB supplier and the parts sold thru the MB network and guaranteed by MB, or sold by the OEM but do not gain the MB guarantee of quality but only the manufacturers guarantee or the third level of after market that can be anyone that wished to produce look alike parts usually through reverse engineering of the original MB part. At each level the number of $$ is in proportion to the manufacturers relationship to MB. Full supplier and MB guarantee, lots of $$, OEM but no MB stamp of approval, middle level $$ and then the after market, usually the cheapest. They will also try to get their prices to as near to the OEM price as they think they can get away with.



You mention theroy in all of this. That's good way to put it. This is some of the best pretzel logic I've seen in quite a while......




1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Benz Dr.

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2008, 08:34:16 »
Lets look at a commonly asked for part.

King pin repair kit. Made by Fibi.

List price from MBC  $775.00 CDN
List price K&K ( which is also my list price because I'm a K&K dealer )  $87.50  USD

This is the same part as supplied by MB but it comes in a Febi box made out of foam. The MB part has a star on it which you will pay a lot more for.

Even if you get 25% off from your MB dealer or the CC it's still going to cost you well over 500 bucks if they stick to the list price. Regardless of what box it comes in, where would you buy it?

Is there some clear reason why myself and thousands of vedors all over the world would risk killing someone with cheap suspension parts just to save a few bucks? This is the same part that MB sells.

Some cheap aftermarket stuff can be made anywhere but I think some of you are confusing OEM with aftermarket. MB has a few parts plants that they still own but most of their parts come from OE or OEM parts suppliers.
If you look at the chrome cap by the soft top frame you won't see a MB star on it or even a part number yet it's still a MB part. No one is re-making this part which sells for about 140 dollars. Since it's still asvailable and not too exspensive no one ever will. The tooling cost would never bring you any return.

1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Garry

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2008, 08:41:46 »
Dan,  
I dont know what pretzel logic is other than a Steely Dan album.
I can say having being involved in parts engineering and procurement for the past 30 years and just having spent two months travelling between, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Greece and India looking at OE parts manufacturing, post production parts manufacturing and re-engineering vs others in the likes of India, Primes like MB certification of a parts manufacturer and his product produces a different outcome to  that manufactured outside the certification process.
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G
2005 MB A200
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Electric
2024 Volvo EX30 Electric

Benz Dr.

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2008, 10:23:34 »
Pretzel logic: ( ? )
 bent and twisted, and never ending ( lol )

 Yeah well, I've been selling parts for 20 years and I've been working on these cars for over 30 years. I don't have a  degree in anything and I suppose that means something in higher circles but I manage OK without one.

Parts for our cars are basically MB dealer only, OEM, reproduction and some aftermarket. Most of the parts you buy today will still be good quality because they are OEM.
You can't comapre new cars to our stuff. Car parts for new cars come from anywhere these days and are assembled in plants all over the place. Right now, more cars are built in Ontario Canada than anywhere else in North America. Are these lesser cars than those built in the US or the parent country which would be Japan in this case?

I think the original statement was that if you don't buy from MB then you're getting crap for parts. That's not true. The failure of a couple of sets of spark plug wires proves nothing.
I'm no different than MB. I'm not going to sell you some piece of junk and then have to deal with all the problems that result from that. Believe me, if I have ANY problems with a part I handle I quit dealing that part.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

scoot

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2008, 10:30:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.

I'm no different than MB. I'm not going to sell you some piece of junk and then have to deal with all the problems that result from that.

I'm confused...  I thought that that approach WAS and IS MB's marketing strategy, at least for the past 10 years....   :D
Scott Allen
'67 250 SL (early)
Altadena, California

mdsalemi

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2008, 10:49:30 »
Garry and Dan--you appear to be talking about two different things.  

Dan is talking about the same part from the same manufacturer made for Mercedes, but purchased outside of the Mercedes distribution network.

Garry, you appear to be talking about aftermarket part copied or re-engineered by third-world manufacturers.  Those are two different things.

Also, don't compare aeronautical parts to automotive parts.  The rules are very different and so are the certification processes.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Garry

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2008, 18:57:45 »
I think Dan and I are on different wave lengths. I think it is important to look at the backing that comes with the part because as Dan said, the parts themselves are all the same as a product.
 
When something breaks and someone starts suing, Product Manufacturers Liability, Professional Indemnity and Public Liability insurances and how much the company has paid for, together with how much risk they have decided to take themselves, and this is a big cost driver, will become the biggest determinant as to which company declares bankrupt and which one will stand up for their product and their subcontractors and provide the backing under their umbrella. In my case that cost can be as high as 40% of the cost since 9/11.

Ford is a classic case with a 4x4 and the tire problem some years back. I bet that if it had just been some small parts manufacturer on its own, then they would not exist now.

One of the companies I went to in India actually provide MV parts to Italy, UK and US car manufacturers and with out being specific, there were some odd differences in how they approached the supply of those spares. I was there looking because they provide some work for a Swiss firm that I have dealings with.

Hey Dan, I dont have a degree either, it must be important to some but dont know why as I run my engineering firm just fine without one, mind you I don't do the engineering work either. I'll buy you a beer at PUB 09 if you are there and tell you what goes on in the back-end of the parts manufacturing in India.  Its a great story and will make you not want to fly or drive certain cars or aeroplanes ever again.
Garry Marks
Melbourne/ Kyneton, Brisbane. Australia
1969 MB 280SL 5 speed RHD SOLD.
1965 MB 230SL Auto RHD Lt Blue 334G, Top 350H, Tourist Delivery.
1972 MB 280CE Auto RHD 906G
2005 MB A200
2006 MB B200
2019 Izuzu DMax 4x4 Slide-on camper.
2022 Volvo XC40 Electric
2024 Volvo EX30 Electric

Benz Dr.

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2008, 20:36:33 »
HEHEHEHEHRE
Well Gary, all kinds of things are coming from India these days. Cab drivers and store clerks come to mind. They seems to get to where you want to go and provide the correct change so who knows????

If the border stays open then I might be able to go next summer. Bad time of year for me with wheat harvest during that time. A week earlier would work better.

9/11 screwd everyone. It won't likely ever happen again in the same fashion. It's getting crazy down at the border - they deffinately watch a lot closer now. Meanwhile in Europe they've taken down a lot of borders. We're actually going backwards here but no one seems to be able to stop it or seems to care......

The border is the biggest impediment to the free flow of goods and trade that there is these days. Talk abouty a bottle neck!

Now that's morphing a subject!
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

mdsalemi

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Re: labor cost
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2008, 06:17:01 »
Garry--the issue with "Ford and a 4x4 and a tire" was the Explorer, and was a problem solved.  Unfortunately the truth gets buried because it takes a long time to uncover.  http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2001/06/01/022275.html

For those still interested in the parts quality issue and how it might relate to where you get the parts.  I had modified my previous posting and included a bit of a discussion with a friend of mine who is a consultant in quality issues to Mahle, and also a discussion I had with Bilstein.  Go back and read that, if you are interested.

As for Bosch quality, well, I simply contacted my friends at Bosch and here's what they said--



As per your request, I am responding to your question concerning Bosch quality with respect to Rotating electrical products. In my capacity as General Product Manager for Rotating Electrical Products for NAFTA, I have considerable interaction with our OES (Original Equipment) and Aftermarket sales divisions here in the U.S. as well as with our Remanufacturing facility and Marketing divisions in Germany.

I can assure you that your initial thoughts are correct. It does not matter what the color or design of the external packaging is, Bosch only has one quality level....Premium. Regardless of whether you purchase a remanufactured starter or alternator from a Mercedes distribution channel, or through an aftermarket warehouse distributor / Jobber here in the U.S. all of the product is remanufactured on the exact same assembly lines to the same exacting standards in the same Bosch owned and operated facilities.
 
Bosch customers and the Bosch name are too important to attempt to achieve a lower selling price, at the Risk of reduced quality.
 
Best regards / Mit Freundlichen Grüßen



QED.  You can buy the parts where ever you want.  The quality is the same.  No it doesn't speak to unscrupulous firms selling reject parts out the back door, or counterfeit parts, or parts made by 3rd parties as copies.  It does speak to the same parts sold in different distribution channels.  No major company would have a policy any different than Bosch, Bilstein or Mahle.

How's that Dan?

Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV