Thinking of buying this 280SL

[SE16 UK]

Does anyone know this car?

http://www.hymanltd.com/search/Details.asp?stockno=3693&recordCount=48


I had a look over it yesterday and it seems nice.  Its been 'upgraded' with leather on the dash and door trims- looks great but not original- is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Seems to have had a good quality restoration in Phoenix- but there is little information on who carried out the work etc.

[JamesL]

It'll look grand parked up on the Jamaica Road!

That looks a nice car and you won't get anywhere as good for the cash buying in the UK.

Welcome, by the way, and if you do get it shipped over, let me know. I'm just through the tunnel in Wapping!

[scoot]

Sending you email instead of posting regarding your topic.    Oh, regarding the leather on the dash -- I would think that would be highly vulnerable to sun damage.   But check your email.

[66andBlue]

Leather upholstery has always been an option for a 280SL and is therefore "original". When properly cared for it lasts as long as MB-Tex.

[scoot]

quote:Originally posted by 66andBlue

Leather upholstery has always been an option for a 280SL and is therefore "original". When properly cared for it lasts as long as MB-Tex.

Even on the dash?   BMW had a little disaster with this on the "L7" around 1987, ended up replacing many of the leather dashes under warranty....

[Mark280SL]

The car looks very nice from the photos but as always you never know until you examine it closely in person. I've seen many when I was shopping for mine but don't know this one and I'm not familiar with the dealer first hand although some here may know them.

I was interested to see the "running in" sticker on the door frame, I don't recall seeing that one before, does anyone know if that sticker was on all the pagoda's when new? there seems to be a plate missing from that area also, or perhaps the photo just does not show it.

The price is interesting I'd be curious to learn if it actually sells for that.

[egggplant]

quote:Originally posted by Mark280SL

The car looks very nice from the photos but as always you never know until you examine it closely in person. I've seen many when I was shopping for mine but don't know this one and I'm not familiar with the dealer first hand although some here may know them.

I agree with Mark here.  There's a saying that "a photo makes a good car look mediocre and a mediocre car look good".  There's also no shots of the underside of the car which would be more reassuring.  My impression of Mark Hyman is that he's always been a bit on the expensive side, but that's just my opinion.

I don't want to discourage you from buying the car, but a flight out to the colonies may be worth it given the price.  In addition, you might be able to do more effective haggling in person than by email which may cover your travel costs.  Plus you'll have the chance to enjoy the lovely St. Louis summer weather.

[peterm]

my major problem with a car that looks this good is why is it so "cheap" to take my current car to that level would cost at least that much!  I don't think the under hood plastic tower covers are correct for a 1970 so i would wonder if there is some problem below them

[SE16 UK]

Thanks for the replies...yes I am from London UK...but am soon moving to the Gulf region with work and so the car would be going there.

I am visiting family in the US in St Louis and am here now and hence I have seen it in person and its as good, if not better than in the pictures..I also visited the other classic car 'specialist' and its infinately better than the car they had in stock at the same price-guess the colour isn't as nice but the condition moret then makes up.  

http://www.schmitt.com/viewimage.asp?ID=2973


I will have access to a ramp etc for inspection.  The issue is that I dont know how extensive the restoration has been- panels etc all look square and original.  Its

So if it had leather as an option from new would it have extended to the dash and door panels?

The car will not be a daily driver (perhaps 30 miles each week)- and it will be kept in a garage.  Will need AC fitting (Buds benz is the recommended system by the dealer)

[JamesL]

quote:Originally posted by SE16 UK



So if it had leather as an option from new would it have extended to the dash and door panels?

I think so. Mine was leather from new and the dash top/bottom and the door cards are leather

[Douglas]

So did you see the car in person and get a chance to poke around the undercarriage? Did you get to use a magnet?

My gut reaction is that the two dealers you cite generally sell mediocre Pagodas, so I'm immediately skeptical. Nonetheless, the pix look okay at first glance. The engine bay is very much tarted up with lots of new and incorrect details done to impress, but that's all easily fixed. Front bumper fit is so-so and the bonnet doesn't look like it fits too well on the passenger side of the nose. Looks uneven and tight. Possible sheet metal work there. Again, just a guess, but I would investigate further.

No pix of undercarriage or even the trunk floor. That raises a flag to me. Any decent dealer would brag about those areas if he could. I'd check those areas out and if you can see signs of either liberal undercoating or recent repair work down there, I would immediately walk away.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[SE16 UK]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

So did you see the car in person and get a chance to poke around the undercarriage? Did you get to use a magnet?

My gut reaction is that the two dealers you cite generally sell mediocre Pagodas, so I'm immediately skeptical. Nonetheless, the pix look okay at first glance. The engine bay is very much tarted up with lots of new and incorrect details done to impress, but that's all easily fixed. Front bumper fit is so-so and the bonnet doesn't look like it fits too well on the passenger side of the nose. Looks uneven and tight. Possible sheet metal work there. Again, just a guess, but I would investigate further.

No pix of undercarriage or even the trunk floor. That raises a flag to me. Any decent dealer would brag about those areas if he could. I'd check those areas out and if you can see signs of either liberal undercoating or recent repair work down there, I would immediately walk away.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Thanks- will spend time tomorrow to look underneath.  Which pic makes the bonnet look bad?  Also where does the bumper not fit?  I'll make sure I have a close look.

[Douglas]

The car looks okay in the limited number of pix posted, so I'm not saying it's a dog. (On the other hand, I'm not saying it isn't either.) It's hard to tell from a few pix, so please consider those areas merely as places to check. Look for nice even panel gaps around the bonnet. Also, less important because it's more easily adjusted is the front bumper. The ends are supposed to be flush with the body panel and not bowed out. Think of them as parallel to the sides at each corner and generally straight, not downward-pointing.

Frankly, I'm just not a believer in these dealers. Same with Cooper and Aventura, both in NY. If you're looking for a dealer, then I'd suggest  Brian Peters at motoringinvestments.com in San Diego or Alex Dearborn in Massachusetts (dearbornauto.com). They truly do sell cars in a different league than Schmitt or Hyman and are both enthusiasts.

[SE16 UK]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas

The car looks okay in the limited number of pix posted, so I'm not saying it's a dog. (On the other hand, I'm not saying it isn't either.) It's hard to tell from a few pix, so please consider those areas merely as places to check. Look for nice even panel gaps around the bonnet. Also, less important because it's more easily adjusted is the front bumper. The ends are supposed to be flush with the body panel and not bowed out. Think of them as parallel to the sides at each corner and generally straight, not downward-pointing.

Frankly, I'm just not a believer in these dealers. Same with Cooper and Aventura, both in NY. If you're looking for a dealer, then I'd suggest  Brian Peters at motoringinvestments.com in San Diego or Alex Dearborn in Massachusetts (dearbornauto.com). They truly do sell cars in a different league than Schmitt or Hyman and are both enthusiasts.

Thanks- I will check their stock.  The other thing Hyman mentioned were a 'nick' around the headlights- they explained that they rarely see these as they get filled over- does this mean anything to you experts?

[bogeyman]

My take on this car as follows
  Exterior pictures are not close enough to determine suffucient detail - seeing it in person would answer those details - gaps, surface prep, chrome quality, etc.
  The engine bay shows a general lack of consideration for original finishes.  Cad seems to be incosistent in quality, color. I don't think the restorer was familiar with these cars.
  The interior has similar deficiencies.  The leather option in these cars included all upholstered surfaces finished in leather, so that part is correct, but the seat padding is overstuffed, probably not the original material.  The headrests do not have the plastic "circles" that provide access to the adjusting bolts on the sides.  This appears to be parchment leather which was not available with beige carpet.
  Overall, this appears to be a restoration that was done more for appearance than originality.  The price probably reflects that.  Your decision is whether these deficiencies are acceptable to you going forward. A car with original components will always bring more at resale, so if you elect to spend more now for the originality, it will be returned when you sell.  The question is which do you want while you own the car.

Rick

[SE16 UK]

could anyone recommend a reliable person or garage to carry out an independent inspection of the car?  Looked at the other cars at motor investments- truly awesome but the budget wont stretch..there is a nice white one but its a manual..would prefer an auto

[Douglas]

If you like Motoring Investments, call them. They have a larger inventory beyond what's on the Website.

[jameshoward]

Their cars look great, but their prices seem to have gone through the roof, the stratosphere and into outer space in the past 12 months. I check their site regularly. Not sure they are the best value for money out there unless you're after a true show-mobile.

JH

[Mark280SL]

Hopefully you can find a knowledgable member here that lives nearby a car you may be interested in to do it for you.

SGS(the ebay vendor), Carchex.com, Buyerguardian.com, automobileinspections.com and several others are out there doing inspections for various fees. I used Carchex a couple of times to look at cars when I was shopping and they were professional and responsive and performed specific checks I requested in addition to the list of standard things they check along with a boatload of photos. In one case the guy they sent was actually familiar with Pagoda's also.

quote:Originally posted by SE16 UK

could anyone recommend a reliable person or garage to carry out an independent inspection of the car?  Looked at the other cars at motor investments- truly awesome but the budget wont stretch..there is a nice white one but its a manual..would prefer an auto

[SE16 UK]

quote:Originally posted by bogeyman

My take on this car as follows
  Exterior pictures are not close enough to determine suffucient detail - seeing it in person would answer those details - gaps, surface prep, chrome quality, etc.
  The engine bay shows a general lack of consideration for original finishes.  Cad seems to be incosistent in quality, color. I don't think the restorer was familiar with these cars.
  The interior has similar deficiencies.  The leather option in these cars included all upholstered surfaces finished in leather, so that part is correct, but the seat padding is overstuffed, probably not the original material.  The headrests do not have the plastic "circles" that provide access to the adjusting bolts on the sides.  This appears to be parchment leather which was not available with beige carpet.
  Overall, this appears to be a restoration that was done more for appearance than originality.  The price probably reflects that.  Your decision is whether these deficiencies are acceptable to you going forward. A car with original components will always bring more at resale, so if you elect to spend more now for the originality, it will be returned when you sell.  The question is which do you want while you own the car.

Rick

You are on the money- had a good look over the car today and drove it.
Its been restored to a good standard but not to an orginal one.  Very tight and tracks really well with exceptional steering and handling - only concerns:

1) engine is very noisey - it seems very tappetty and rattly from the top end.

2) the gears seem to hold- doesnt change into 4 til quite high speed and the throttle is sticking and so idles very high

3) speedo is not working

The first two are major worries for me- for the money its a great useable showroom quality car but by no means concours at all.  A concours would be $90k so thats fine..issue is around the engine now.. and there is no history to substantiate that its been rebuilt.  No smoke and pulls like a train so it could be a bad cam or maybe tappets (perhaps even just adjustment).

[jameshoward]

I don't know 113 automatics so no comment on gears. The throttle/high idle could be any number of things including something as simple as a poorly adjusted linkage. No big deal and lots of info here about how to rectify.

If you drive it again, look to see if the odometer is working even if the speed indicating needle isn't. If it is, try tapping the speedo when driving. If it leaps up, then it's probably just the worm gear. If the odo isn't racking up the miles, it could be a bigger problem.

JH

[MichaelB.]

That golden color is gorgeous.

Oh and just a caveat... Before you (or anyone else) goes forward with a Daniel Schmitt car like the original car you posted please look on line and discover their checkered history with customers.

Another question. Do you want to find a 280, or would a 230 serve you well? Do you want a fully restored car or an original?

[MichaelB.]

quote:
Thanks- I will check their stock.  The other thing Hyman mentioned were a 'nick' around the headlights- they explained that they rarely see these as they get filled over- does this mean anything to you experts?

Sure. Take a close look at any solid quality 230/250/280 near the headlight along the inside edge of where the fender meets the chrome headlight surround. There is (or should be) a tiny body indent that matches the chrome trim stamped into the fender. When most 230/250/280 seem to get restored this delicate indent gets sanded off or filled. Simple to see, and very telling about the restoration or originality.

[Douglas]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelB.



Sure. Take a close look at any solid quality 230/250/280 near the headlight along the inside edge of where the fender meets the chrome headlight surround.

I'd like to add that I wouldn't put too much stock in the headlight notches these days. A lot of unscrupulous restorers are now putting these kinds of details into poor restorations because it's so commonly known as a telltale sign of quality or originality. They add the notches, the various spot welds, buy a toolkit from a 1980s sedan off of ebay, then they've suddenly made chicken salad out of something else made by chickens that's unprintable. Frankly, it's sad.

These cars are worth real money today. You can tell by the number of dealers passing off mediocre cars as low-mileage originals. It's become a bona fide business model to take $20K Pagodas, superficially dress them up with, and sell them for $35K+. ("58K on the odometer and we believe it!")

My point is not to get too caught up with the notches as a telltale sign. Go deeper. Look for filler with a magnet, look at proper panel fit, look for integrity in the body or the restoration, look for maintenance records, look for cars where the seller isn't trying to hide flaws,look for an enthusiast owner.... All of those are more telling.

[MichaelB.]

quote:look for cars where the seller isn't trying to hide flaws,look for an enthusiast owner.... All of those are more telling.

Well said Doug. I concur completely. I got caught up in the detail of the body indent and never wavered. Your post is more insightful.