Once again, looking for some guidance on potential buy

[Andres G]

Hello Folks,

I continue to lurk around this forum while I simultaneously celebrate the 30th 113 SL I've seen (and passed on) since I started looking for one over 5 months ago. I believe if I start saving the time and money I've spent checking out cars, I could probably completely restore one from scratch... but for now I'll stick to my guns and work on finding the one I really like.

And on that note, I wanted to share some concerns on an interesting SL I've come across. It's a 67 250 SL with a 4 speed, in it's original Medium Gray and in fairly decent/original shape. There are however, some things I've seen on it that I do not particularly love, so I'm not sure what to do about it/them.

The car was originally delivered in Italy according to the owner (I've not been able to check on this yet as I've not received a picture of the Paint and Body # plate)... can this be determined by the Datacard? The reason I suspect this is not accurate is that although the car has the round side turn indicators on the front fenders, the sticker on the inside of the bootlid indicating tire pressures is actually in French (owner states the sticker is original).



This is only a minor issue, mostly irrelevant. However, the first real issue I find with the car is the work that has been done to the footwells to fix some rust damage/problems on it. You will see in the pictures below that the work performed on it was "sub-par" to say the least. It also concerns me to see some red paint showing up on the inside of the car on the passenger side footwell. Is it possible that the replacement panels were taken from a donor vehicle? If so, I wonder who would ever do that to a rust free pagoda...

Pictures below:

Is this welding something to be concerned about?


Where is that red paint coming from? Same with the weld job...





I believe I could learn to live with this, after all, it's not visible while driving or even looking at the car... just makes me a little "iffy"

Here's the heart breaker. Many would (or will) say I'm too anal or that I need to save up $100K to get the car I want, but keep in mind this car is being offered at the same prices as Bob (Cascadia Classics) usually sells his on e-bay.

The current owner (2nd) has installed a concealed stereo in the car, and while doing this, he installed a power antenna on a car that originally came without a radio, drilling a hole in the driver's rear quarter panel as you can appreciate in the picture below.


How bad would this be for resale? How hard would you guys believe it would be to cover up this hole and repaint/resurface it without having ot paint two thirds of the car?

As you can also appreciate, the trunk interior is in really good shape:



Next is another concern. The engine bay has been painted flat black and the padding on the firewall appears to be non-original. Is this trouble? Can this be fixed to more acceptable standards?



The rest of the car looks quite well, although the Medium Gray paint looks a little too green for me, I believe it may be a photographic effect caused by the camera... experienced owners or propietors of cars in this color, please chime in. Here's the exterior pics:















Please let me know if you see anything out of place or totally wrong, please point it out. I am arranging to drive 6 hours to see this car this coming weekend so I'd rather skip it if the veredict from the more experienced members comes back guilty... errrr... I mean, negative.

I have pictures of the datacard if there is some additional data that can be obtained through it.

Thanks in advance,
Andres G

[Douglas]

You'll find many Pagodas with the antenna installed in exactly that part of the quarter panel. In fact, the Hirschmann literature from the period tells you to install it right there.

[69280sl]

I believe there was another series of posts regarding the tire pressure sticker that indicated Italian cars were fitted with a French sticker, so don't put any emphasis on that detail.

Gus
1968 280sl

[hauser]

The small round indicator lights on the front fenders is usually found on Italian cars.

[Andres G]

Thanks for the quick replies. I went back to the technical manual and found that the info on the datacard actually provides the info as to where the car was destined/marketed to, in this case it's code 543 for Italia, so we're good with that.

My main concern is the welding job done for the footwells. What do you guys think?

Thanks again,
Andres G

[psmith]

The floors look a little dodgy, but they can be replaced.  More importantly check the rockers(sills in the UK), especially at the front and back as they're much harder and more expensive to replace.  I just had my floors done with reproductions from K&K.  I think it came out pretty well, but they were a little heavy handed with the undercoating and seam sealer.

Here's before and after

[Cees Klumper]

This looks like a good car to me (remember, thousands of miles away looking at photos). Every car has its right price, this certainly looks like on you can own and enjoy for many, many years. And over the course of those years you will have to do maintenance, some big, some small. You may get lucky with the amount of maintenance, then again you may get some surprises along the way. It will always cost you some thousands here and there. In the end, if you keep the car up well and, far and foremost, enjoy it by driving it regularly, you will get back what you paid for it, probably a bit more; so long as you don't pay too much now.

Having said all that, my suggestion to you would be to just go for a car that feels good and has no serious hidden rust problems, be prepared to pay a little (or a lot, depending on the condition and how fortunate / unfortunate you are); it may be a very long time before you find your perfect 10 otherwise!

[glcg123]

When you say original paint you mean the original colour do you not? The inner fender wells should be the body colour, not black.

George

1965 230SL 4 speed

[jameshoward]

I agree with Cees that it appears to be a nice car. The firewall pad isn't an issue. Assuming you could find one made of the original material it would cost you thousands to buy. Depending on the climate many people paint the inside of the wheel arches with protective paint. Seems to make perfect sense to me. I don't know what changes were made to the 250 when it came out, but the interior door handle on the bottom photo doesn't look like the ones on the 230. Maybe it was a change, or maybe it's the wrong handle. You could find out and use that to beat them down on price. If the floor pans aren't rusty, weak or letting in water, I'd leave them and spend the money elsewhere for now. The photo of the underside of the transmission that shows the small spring looks a little wet with oil. You might find you have a small transmission fluid leak from there. (inasmuch as it looks exactly like the underside of mine, which also has a leak there).

JH

[seixever]

Hi Andreas, I bought a 250 Sl automatic last october here in Rome from its second owner (original and veryfied 67K kms).
The sticker for wheel pressure is in french like yours, and identical are the rounded side markers and the rear lights (orange).
Mine is metallic gray with navy blu interiors (like yours), green athermic glasses, and a rare optional: the luggage set.
Vin number is not far from yours (only 300 cars of difference) so I think they came out the same month of 1967 for the same destination...
I've never seen an italian car with two external mirrors: here is very hard to find a Pagoda with the original left one, the right is impossible...
I 've the antenna on the right fender too: it's not so bad to see but is very difficult (and expansive) blank the hole so I'll leave it there forever!
Your car seems to have some features of the 280 (steering wheel, handles) and other of the old series (internal/exterior mirror, knobs, window winders, armrest): I tought that all these features (and others) came up togheter from vin number 3000 circa.
The worst thing on yours is the engine compartment in black (!): expansive to repaint and some doubt on "why"...
Other two things: right sunvisor without mirror and some cable not fixed in the trunk (another seems added, for the antenna I think).
Bye.

[Douglas]

What you need to establish is whether this particular car was restored properly. Panel fit looks decent, but definitely take a magnet to the body and look for filler. How recently was it restored? And by whom?

[Andres G]

Thanks once more for your replies guys. I appreciate every comment and point of view offered here. I will definitely check for bondo using a magnet (are there any other precision tools that can be used for this?) and for rust as that is definitely my main concern.

When you say original paint you mean the original colour do you not? The inner fender wells should be the body colour, not black.

I meant the original colour... Thanks for pointing out the inner fenders painted black. I had completely passed that as well and to a certain degree, it will work as a bargaining chip.

Also, thanks to Cees, James and Sixever for pointing out these details. I will make sure I have my list when seeing the car in person (unfortunately it seems as if work were getting on my way now... schedules have just changed and I may have to stay abroad a couple more days than expected).

Douglas, I believe the car was restored by an independent shop, not any restorer in particular. The current owner bought it in Italy in 1985 and took it back with him upon his return to the US. The car was a regular driver in the early 90's and saw a complete mechanical refurbish before 2000. It was then driven some more before a complete interior and exterior restoration was performed between 04 and 06.

According to the owner, the car had 24.000 kms when it was purchased and now reads 39.000 kms.

Thanks for your help. I will post pictures once I get to see it personally.
Andres G

[Richard Madison]

A word about mileage:

The total mileage cannot be assumed from the odometer reading especially with a kilometer guage. The current reading of 39,000 km is about 24,000 miles. It is highly unlikely that a car would have averaged only 600 miles a year for over 40 years.

A km odometer turns over at 99,999. This is only 62,000 miles. The ticker has probably turned over at least once and, if driven hard, maybe tiwce. I suspect it's more like 139,000 km or near 90,000 miles.

But this is not of concern since these cars can go just about forever. Mileage is not a real factor if the car runs OK. Some engines may require new valve guides or other top work after a hard life of Alpine climbing. This can be a bit costly but not outrageously so.

And if an engine has had this kind of work done, then the total mileage becomes even less important since the engine has new life.

Some of the signs of high mileage in a car that has an original interior: worn or popping driver seat. (The passenger seat might be empty most of the time but you can't drive standing up)...also worn pedal tops and worn carpet footwells.

By the way, I have an Italian car (originally sold in Naples) and the car being discussed here has all the signs of a car sold in Italy: the trunk sticker in French, the firewall passenger side data plate, the smalll orange disks, the Euro instruments, Euro headlights and Italian market rear lights.  Euro cars are more likely to have a manual transmission, no seat belts, no hazard flashers, and no bumper guards.   

Richard M, NYC

   

[Douglas]

The ticker has probably turned over at least once and, if driven hard, maybe tiwce.

Richard M, NYC

   

Richard,

I don't think you can say 150K qualifies as "driven hard" on a car of this age. Some of the cars in this forum with 150K are unrestored and pristine by any standard.

(This would be a good time to post a photo of that incredible undercarriage, John.)

[J. Huber]

Have I missed the asking price? If so what is it?

[thelews]

(This would be a good time to post a photo of that incredible undercarriage, John.)

In fairness, the previous owner did refinish undercarriage compenents as he did maintenance and repair work.

[Andres G]

Have I missed the asking price? If so what is it?

Asking price is 37.000 but I've talked about this with the owners and they seem to be open to negotiate. I am going to try to check the car out this weekend (hopefully) and learn more about it.

I'll keep everyone updated.

BTW - thelews, that picture is incredible!

[Andres G]

Guys, I've come accross a 113 that may be a good candidate to buy, however I believe there is a significant gap in between the asking price and what I think the true value of the car is. I would like to run this scenario by the people on this forum to get a sense of direction wether I'm on the right track and should continue to work with the owner to get to an agreement on sale price or if I should walk away.

The car I'm looking at is a 250 SL with a 4 speed finished on green metallic paint (medium gray - 178H code). The asking price is $37K. I believe there are a few things wrong with the car that may require different levels of work to get to a more desirable condition.

First, the paint job:. The car has been repainted a few years back but noticeable imperfections are visible to different degrees:
- There are scratches on both sides of the hood near the hinges due to missalignment when it was put back on the car after the repaint. From my POV, it looks like the hood needs a full repaint. Is this a common occurence?
- While the car was being repainted, the hardtop was not taken out of storage thus not restored. There are rust colored spots on the base, and the paint looks faded. Again, a probable full repaint needed here. How expensive can this be? I mean paint, headliner cleaning/replacement, chrome, wood... the lot.
- Superficial scratches can be found on the front passenger side quarter panel, the softop cover (right where the hartd top mounts on the body), as well as a couple of dents on the area round the front grille and the 3 point star emblem on the trunk.
- The car was at some point in time painted in red... all of it, including the interior, floors, etc. Some of this red is sufracing on both footwells as well as the area around the doorsil on the driver side. Again, looks like areas that need a repaint.
- The engine compartment is finished in black and although no rust is apparent, the finish is quite frankly, bad. Not sure if this can actually be fixed without taking the engine out of the car.Any suggestions?

Bodywork:
- The body appears solid and true, no signs of accident damages and front clip seems original (weld spots and creases are there and look original to me). However, the trunk floor has been replaced with a decent job, unlike both footwells where Dr. Frankenstein seems to have taken charge of the welder. I would believe both need to be redone sooner than later as it appears that water would find spots to seep through. How expensive can this job turn out to be?
- The rubber seal for the softop lid seems to be awfully thick and when folding the softop to tuck it away, the seal/weather stripping gets caught up with the softop and makes the whole operation a big mess. How can I tell if the weather stripping is the right one? Is this common too?

Chrome:
- The front grille has been buffed in excess and needs to be replated, as well as the softop handles, the emblems on the trunk and all the chrome on the hardtop. How expensive is this to do? Are these parts hard to remove from the car?

Headlights:
- The car is equipped with Euro headlights but the interior plating inside these looks rusty and has partially flaked off. Can these be refurbished or do they need to be replaced?

Mechanical:
- Upon first start, the engine turns a few times until it comes alive. Afterwards, it starts right up when it gets to propper temperature.
- The engine runs smoothly and idles evenly. While driving the car I did notice the revs would go up and down while sitting at a red light, not sure if this was due to old gas or due to the need of a tuneup. Engine appears to be original. Is this a normal thing with these engines? I've driven only a handful of these and this one was the first one to do this...
- Transmission has a leak although it shifts smoothly. Some noise can be heard at low speeds from the rear diff. I do not expect the smoothness of an 09 S class, but just want to make sure there is not a time bomb in the diff... anyone here hear/feel this while cruising slow?
- Brake pedal has a very inconsistent feel, according to the owner it needs a new master brake cylinder. Any idea on the price of these?

Esthetics
- The engine compartment needs a lot of elbow grease (aside from the incorrect paint scheme), like cleaning and polishing alloy and aluminum components, as well as replacing rubber hoses, grommets and rusty washers. Anyone done this job to their car in the past? Are these hoses and clamps easy to procure?
- The trunk rubber mat, spare tire cover and toolkit are missing. Are these hard to find? How much could they cost?
- The sunvisors are replacements and I believe they are not model accurate. Are there reproductions now available?

Overall, aside from these acceptable defects, the car seems like a good example to begin working on to finally be able to get my Pagoda. Nonetheless, the asking price seems way high, especially when compared to the last 250 sold by Cascadia Classics on e-bay about 10 days ago, a beautiful Blue Metallic that went for $38K. I'd believe a car like this should be worth high 20's but not anywhere over 30... Any thoughts from you fellow forum members?

I apologize for the long posting, hopefully I did not bore anyone to death.

Thanks,
Andres G

[jsaylor]

Andres,

Sounds like a whole lot of work for a car with that asking price.  How well documented are the services and repairs?

Any photo's you can share?

[Andres G]

Jim,

Thanks for your quick reply. You can see pictures of the car provided by the owner in this thread (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9922.0). I will post some more of them later today but I fumbled a bit with the camera so I was not able to get the pictures I wanted to show...

Regarding documentation, the seller insists on having most up-to-date documentation until 05 when the car was repainted. It has since been driven less than 500 kms/year. I've asked to see the receipts but these were unavailable at the time.

Thanks in advance,
Andres G

[Douglas]

We went through this with you already, Andres. Did you take a magnet to the body? Sounds like you're fixating on the minutiae. Look at the big stuff first.

[Andres G]

Thanks Douglas, I appreciate your reminder. This time I kept your words in mind and I did bring a magnet with me  . It appears the car is solid, no signs of bondo anywhere, especially around the usual rust spots (wheel arches, front clip, trunk floor). I went all around with my magnet and then went a step further and even probed on most of the potential rust spots with my screwdriver without any surprises.

Like I said on my previous post, I think this car makes a good candidate since it passes the bill on most of the "key" issues to check on (No rust, a good runner, not in storage for long periods, a dedicated 2nd owner, matching numbers and a decent color combo), but has some other areas where there is opportunities to fix and improve fit and finish of what has been done before (Paint details, Hardtop, Mechanical, etc). I agree with you Douglas, that I am fixating on the minutiae since it is there where I think the difference between a decent car and a great car lies.

There is (at least in my mind) a significant value difference between a high/solid #2 and an average/low #2 condition car... what I'm trying to do is to ensure that my mind lines up with the rest of the world's valuations so that I do not end up overpaying for a car or letting a really nice example go away either. Being in the middle of nowhere also hurts when it comes to comparing examples and taking a look at a similar car to be able to asses things in the best possible way.

Thanks for the feedback guys and please keep it coming as it helps me a lot while looking through all this.
Andres G

[MichaelB.]

Well... Your thinking that you would be comfortable in the $28,000 range... Then the only way to see what the car will sell for is to offer the seller that sum. If he takes it then you have a great example of what $28K will buy today.

Are you afraid that the seller will argue the price and you are looking for a way to show him a reduced value for an example like his?

[Peter van Es]

Andres,

I've merged these topics, since they are on the same car. Can you please in future not start a new topic when asking for advice on the same car, it gets terribly confusing.

Also, in Europe, $38K would be considered a steal on a car of this kind. If it is for you too, depends on YOU. Do you have the skills and ability to put these things right yourself? Then this car would be great value for you. If you have to pay someone else to do so, and you insist that it gets done perfectly, by all means wait and find a $50K car that's near perfect... less hassle for you.

If you'd like to drive now, and improve over time, learning as you go along, follow the advice of MichaelB... offer what you're comfortable with and see if he takes it!

Peter

[jameshoward]

...and following on from what Peter said - and I agree with all of it - you're never going to really know what you've bought until you've taken it home and either started to get stuck into it yourself, or until you get the first few calls from whomever you use to do it for you.

Replacing hoses is cheap and easy. Replacing other rubber - of which there is a ton of the stuff - is hard work and can get pricey even if you do it yourself. Since it's been stored you'll probably want/need to do all the rubber anyway. As for the hardtop, one that's in great condition is a bonus, but one that's fair isn't going to reduce the price much. Nice to have and all that. Mine is in great condition, but I wouldn't have paid more for the car because of it. And they're a **** to restore, but then do you really need a great hardtop? It's a convertible afterall.

As for how they run, don't worry if the revs are up and down. The engines are rock solid and anyway it'll take time to get to know the car, by which time you'll have paid for it. Take the plunge and accept that pretty much whatever you buy will need several thousands of pounds/dollars/euros spent on it to get it where you want it. It could be a great car, or it could turn out to be a real cow and take a while to get right. Either way, you'll have a lot of fun. Lack of rust is a real bonus, and you've discovered that already!

JH