Once again, looking for some guidance on potential buy

[Andres G]

Well... Your thinking that you would be comfortable in the $28,000 range... Then the only way to see what the car will sell for is to offer the seller that sum. If he takes it then you have a great example of what $28K will buy today. - Are you afraid that the seller will argue the price and you are looking for a way to show him a reduced value for an example like his?

Michael, from my perspective, if I were selling a car I would not ask 37 for a car to end up selling it for 28, but it's been with the Pagoda that I've found the broadest disparity between the asking price of a car and what it actually should/does sell for... lots of people out there thinking they have the very last one of these cars, an extremely rare gem, but as it turns out an Acura NSX may be twice as rare as these cars are when it comes to overall units built.

I'm thinking I will probably put all of this down on a spreadsheet and assign an approximate value to it, then reach out to the seller with a reasonable offer based on the work needed to be done on the car.

Andres, I've merged these topics, since they are on the same car. Can you please in future not start a new topic when asking for advice on the same car, it gets terribly confusing.

Got it, sorry! 

Also, in Europe, $38K would be considered a steal on a car of this kind. If it is for you too, depends on YOU. Do you have the skills and ability to put these things right yourself? Then this car would be great value for you. If you have to pay someone else to do so, and you insist that it gets done perfectly, by all means wait and find a $50K car that's near perfect... less hassle for you.

If you'd like to drive now, and improve over time, learning as you go along, follow the advice of MichaelB... offer what you're comfortable with and see if he takes it!

Peter

Peter, my search is for a solid #2 car, one with which I pretend to learn and enjoy over time and if possible, improve and take care of in such way that it at least retains it's current value. I'm not looking to make a fortune on this car, but rather trying to follow some reasonable advise I've read on this forum that stated that it is best to invest $35K in a vehicle like this and get to enjoy it rather than having the same amount showing up on your balance sheet every month.

I have the skills to work on most of these projects, except maybe the painting and welding, for it to be up to my standards (If it were me with the MIG welder, a "Frankenstein" job would be an understatement). The advice and guidance received is very valuable and I'm planning on following it.

...and following on from what Peter said - and I agree with all of it - you're never going to really know what you've bought until you've taken it home and either started to get stuck into it yourself, or until you get the first few calls from whomever you use to do it for you.

Replacing hoses is cheap and easy. Replacing other rubber - of which there is a ton of the stuff - is hard work and can get pricey even if you do it yourself. Since it's been stored you'll probably want/need to do all the rubber anyway. As for the hardtop, one that's in great condition is a bonus, but one that's fair isn't going to reduce the price much. Nice to have and all that. Mine is in great condition, but I wouldn't have paid more for the car because of it. And they're a **** to restore, but then do you really need a great hardtop? It's a convertible afterall.

As for how they run, don't worry if the revs are up and down. The engines are rock solid and anyway it'll take time to get to know the car, by which time you'll have paid for it. Take the plunge and accept that pretty much whatever you buy will need several thousands of pounds/dollars/euros spent on it to get it where you want it. It could be a great car, or it could turn out to be a real cow and take a while to get right. Either way, you'll have a lot of fun. Lack of rust is a real bonus, and you've discovered that already!

JH

James, thanks to you as well. I believe you've pointed out what seems obvious but I may be failing to realize. Finding a 99% rust-free example is already a big win, so if this car fits my prefferences I should work on getting it home and then start having fun getting it exactly right, just like I want it to be.

Thanks again to all.
Andres G

[psmith]

 For my 2 cents I would say that you (not You, but anyone) has to combine good knowledge and analysis with a gut feel of how you feel about it and what it is worth.  Unfortunately when looking at classic cars it's easy to get paralysis by analysis because there are so many variables and many of them are subjective and open to debate.  Just try asking which model is better, 230/250/280.  As far as I know, that debate still goes on!  On the other hand, you don't want to just buy a car on gut feel alone, but many have, myself included, and are none the worse for wear.  My advice is to do the analysis, but make sure to see and drive the cars you are interested in so you can let your gut have it's say too.  Then  make an offer that you think is fair and see what happens.  But don't forget...

It's not just a car, it's an adventure 

[Douglas]

Andres,

Your timing is good. It's more or less a buyer's market right now. If I were in your position, I would be looking for a Pagoda that's not just rust-free, but one that was never rusty. Clearly, this one doesn't fit that description.

[J. Huber]

I think what Douglas just said is spot on. For that asking price, I would expect at a minimum to look at the undercarraige and be assured it was never rusty. I could live with a small amount of surface stuff here and there but if someone took the time to replace floors, etc I'd be leary. The mid 20's is a different story -- but even then, I'd hope for a clean fix.

[mdsalemi]

Andres,

Jumping into the first car you see unless there is some overwhelming and compelling reason to do so, isn't a great idea.  It is a bit of a buyer's market out there, but take the time to look at a few cars to see various levels of repair/restoration, and compare that to the asking prices.  There's no shortage of W113's for sale and never have been.

You are asking the right questions, but rather than just ask the questions you'll need to take a few trips and "kick a few tires" as they say.  Your sources of cars for sale should include Our SL.com, the SL Market Letter, Hemming's, The Star--in addition to contacting the well known restorers and consultants like Alex Dearborn, Mark Passarelli, Brian Peters, etc.

Rust should be considered just like any other issue with a car.  The actual percentage of W113's that have never seen rust of any kind is probably miniscule; it would be cars from certain pristine climates that never received much use.   Give me a rusty trunk any day over an engine that needs goodness knows what.  Be wary of all those cars that seem to be "California Cars".  Unscupulous sellers use that regularly as a selling tactic.

You have to use your judgment and look at quite a few cars before you sink tens of thousands into one.  That's only the beginning!

[Andres G]

Love the advise I'm getting here! I seem to fall towards what Douglas and J.Huber mention in regards of an absolutely never-rusted car, which may seem like harder to find but I get the idea as to wich direction I should be pointed towards.

I get the feeling I could offer a fair value for this car and maybe get it... as far as gut feeling goes, this particular car looks very nice everywhere else where rust is bound to show up (around the headlights, inside the trunk and soft-top compartment, below the rear valance) except for the replaced floorboards. At the same time, I begin to feel the "overanalysis" effect, under which there is almost no car on the face of the planet which can pass the perfection test, especially within the 30K budget set for this project.

Andres,

Jumping into the first car you see unless there is some overwhelming and compelling reason to do so, isn't a great idea.  It is a bit of a buyer's market out there, but take the time to look at a few cars to see various levels of repair/restoration, and compare that to the asking prices.  There's no shortage of W113's for sale and never have been.

You are asking the right questions, but rather than just ask the questions you'll need to take a few trips and "kick a few tires" as they say.  Your sources of cars for sale should include Our SL.com, the SL Market Letter, Hemming's, The Star--in addition to contacting the well known restorers and consultants like Alex Dearborn, Mark Passarelli, Brian Peters, etc.

...

You have to use your judgment and look at quite a few cars before you sink tens of thousands into one.  That's only the beginning!

Michael, I've actually seen in person over 30 cars so far (and discarded at least another 30+ cars based on provided pictures and preferences of my own), none of which were even close to the shape one would expect based on the asking price... people out there are asking low 30's and talk wonderfully about their cars until you ask for pictures of the trunk, the footwells and the engine compartments, then they back away misteriously and never call back. Others even tell you to drive/fly out there and check the car out, stating the shape is perfect and that "as far as they can see there is absolutely no rust on this baby" - Which leads me to believe that most sellers drive, wash and store their cars with their eyes completely closed   

I've so far driven anywhere between 1 to 8 hours one way on this quest and I'm not giving up that easy... I will have to see another 30 cars before I can begin to say I've seen plenty, and even then I'm sure there would be plenty more for me to learn from each new car I see.

My search is pretty defined as I know I want either a 230 or a 250, manual transmission and a certain group of colors (I do not want white or red, and based on an old post from Richard M, I believe this pushes me out of almost 50% of the available cars) to choose from, as well as no red interior.

I am definitely not giving up and I truly appreciate the feedback.
Thanks guys.
Andres

[Douglas]

Peter, my search is for a solid #2 car, one with which I pretend to learn and enjoy over time and if possible, improve and take care of in such way that it at least retains it's current value.
Andres G

Technically speaking, you're not looking for a #2 car. A #2 car is what the rest of the world would call a "show car." In any event, this is all semantics. I think your budget should buy you a nice Pagoda in today's market. I stick by what I said earlier about finding a car that was never rusty, but I should clarify that some surface rust in places like the trunk floor should not deter you from a purchase. There's rust and then there's RUST.

[Andres G]

Well, to help bring more texture to this decision process (and to help me get away from posting again on the B3 bailout subject), here are a few more pictures of the car I was able to get this past weekend. Unfortunately, I had just got my new camera, a Canon G10, and I had not yet familiarized myself with it's features, so I wasn't really able to take all the pictures of the car I was really wanting to get.

Anyway, here's what I got. If you guys notice anything completely gone wrong or out of place, something worth mentioning before buying the car, now it's the time to speak (or write). I will be contacting the seller and placing an offer on the car tomorrow.

First, a view around the car. Lines look clean and smooth around the car, no evident accident damage.














The original weld spots are on the front fenders, as well as the creases on the inside of them. These can be seen here, together with the described scratches produced by the  misalignment of the hood.




One of my two real concerns on the car, this really ugly floor panel replacement job. I can see where the old undercoat was scratched off and where the original metal meets the new panel put in place to replace whatever was rusty enough to cut away...




Driver side footwell has also been repaired in a sub-par way.


No signs of rust or anything like it on the rear floor panels.


Most of the chrome looks good around the car, like this badge.


The only piece that needs work or replacement is the grille.




My other key concerning issue is the un-restored hardtop, which will probably need significant work...




The gas cap looks like a replica of the MB OEM with lock and a logo, but not sure.


Sunvisors are replacements and do not match the car's originals, just can't really tell exactly how far off are they from the real deal.


The interior is in really good overall shape. Wood kit is a replacement from a well known supplier (cannot recall the name)


This is the type of scratches/damage to the softop cover I mentioned earlier too. Is this a common occurence? The other side looks similar too.


Here's what I mentioned on an earlier post about the doorjambs where the red paint below is now showing...



And here's the interior of the headlights that looks like they may need some refurbishing



Soooo... what do you guys think?

Andres

[66andBlue]

.. now it's the time to speak (or write). ..

Check your email! 

[hkollan]

Andres,

I don't have much to add to what's already been said, but I would suggest paying attention to what among others Douglas is trying to tell you.
If you are looking for a real condition #2 car, the anthracite one will never fit that criteria unless you do quite extensive restoration work on it.
This car clearly has had pretty serious rust issues, that has not yet been properly repaired. The engine compartment leaves a lot to be desired and so on.
The black tectyl type undercoating is also a common cover for more potential rust issues, especially on a euro car with floor repairs like this.
And as far as I can tell the gas cap and sun visors look just fine and original.

You seem to have the right attitude and determination, so finding a never rusted and possibly never hit car might take some time but it's not impossible.


Regards,

Hans

[Nate]

Very nice color on an earlier SL.  BUT, my 2 cents is to walk away from this car.  Whenever the trunk floor has been replaced and you have new foot wells welded in, it's a tell tale sign that this car is rusted in more places than you think or have been disclosed by the seller.  Structural integrity is key to these cars.  You can't duplicate or replicate structural integrity, you can however slap in a new interior or shoot a nice paint job.

[Andres G]

Thanks Nate, that's exactly the kind of advise I'm looking for. I believe it is what Douglas has been trying to tell me without hurting my feelings... Never Rusty is probably better than been rusty and then some.

Hans, thanks to you too!

I'm now expecting to get pictures from another guy with a German 230 SL, second owner and recently restored... let's see how that works out.

Andres