123 Distributor

[bpossel]

Naj, Cees, Andy, and others who have installed the "123"...

Which model of "123" did you purchase for our cars? The "123\Mercedes-6-R-V" or "123\Mercedes-6-R-V-IE"

http://123ignition.nl/id/25.html

Also, how is this unit setup?  Direct wire without any ballast resistors?  Which coil?  I guess just the standard coil, wires, etc...?

I think I may box up my Bosch 009 w/Pertronx and go with the "123" if I can understand how to correctly install it.

Thanks!!!
Bob 
 

[Peter van Es]

Searching for that search term would lead you to this thread: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=8816.0 where that exact same question was asked.

You need the R-V model, not the one ending in IE. Most people get a new coil, and if it's over 1 Ohm, do away with the ballast resistors. Most people use original spark plug wires, unless really old.

Peter

[bpossel]

Thanks Peter!

Seems like a pretty easy install  !   Looks like it just "drops in" on the 280sl's and a bit more effort on the earlier 113s.

Thank you!
Bob 

[wwheeler]

Bob,

I installed a 123 (R-V as Peter said) and it is very simple to do. The installation seems strange from the instructions but actually is straight forward. 

You need to use the new coil and have to by pass the ballast resistor for the full 12volts. Most people recommend keeping your old distributor handy to use if the 123 module goes out. Unlike the mechanical distributor, the electronic 123 will give you no notice of failure. 

I wired mine with connectors so it would be easy to swap back to the old distributor if desired. I don't think the 123 is really a big distraction from the original except for the absence of the vacuum diaphragm. I liked the thought of originality with the 051, but got tired of adjusting points. I'd rather spend my time on one of the other complex components on these wonderful machines.

[Naj ✝︎]

Has anybody with a late US spec 70/71 model fitted one of these 

naj

[bpossel]

Hello Wallace,

Thank you for your reply and comments.  I wont miss the vacuum cell.  It always seemd in the way when I was adjusting and setting the timing anyway.  I ordered the 123 yesterday and hope to have it by mid Jan.  I'll report back.

Cees, as I read the posts on the 123, there was one that mentions your setup using more gas?  Did you determine what was causing this?  How is your 113 operating on the 123 now?

Thanks,
Bob  

[Peter van Es]

Has anybody with a late US spec 70/71 model fitted one of these 

naj

Naj,

I have a fairly late US model with a 123. However, all the US fuel emissions tinkering stuff has been removed. Mine works fine. I had high fuel consumption but it had nothing to do with the 123 but a problem with my ignition injection (since corrected) which meant that my engine was set to run very rich. I don't know if Cees had such issues too but he's now off to his vacation home in France -- with slow internet -- so he may not answer you soon!

Peter

[bpossel]

Hi Peter,

With using the 123 with your US emission stuff removed, do you have the 123 vacuum line running direct to the ventura?
What is your timing set at?

Thanks Peter!
Bob 

[Peter van Es]

Bob,

I had my garage (van Dijk) do the installation, so I'll have a look tomorrow and let you know.

Peter

[Martijn]

Bob,

Last summer I have replaced the distributer by a 123ignition myself. Although it was a huge improvement, there were some other issues with my engine, especially the linkage. A month ago I brought my car to Van Dijk and they have done some serious work on it. Their mechanic noticed that a special spring was missing underneath the 123ignition. Because of that there was some play in the rotor and therefore the engine wasn't running as smoothly as it could. The standard 123ignition kit comes with a short spring, but Van Dijk told me that the Pagoda needs an extended spring. They have contacted the manufacturer about it, but so far 123ignition only supplies a short spring.

I don't know the type number or dimensions of this spring, but if you contact Frank van Dijk at vandijk@classicsl.com, I am sure they would be happy to give you more information. They have these springs in stock.

Martijn

[bpossel]

Hello All !

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but... 
Was there a different version of the USA and Euro 009/010 (051)?
Didnt the USA version of the 113 have all of the pollution control stuff (crap) and the Euro version not have this?
So how the USA and Euro versions handle vacuum advance/retard are different?
If this is what I think, I wonder how the "123 distributor" replacement is designed to work?  My guess Euro version?
So the "123" would be connected directly to the ventura vs routing through the 2-way valve and being switched on and off at ~1200 rpms?

Thank you!
Bob 

[jameshoward]

Bob,

I'd always assumed that the 123 wouldn't need to be conntected to the vacuum line because it's electronic. But I've never seen one or really thought much about it. I know that one of the UK disitributors (no pun intended) is about 4 miles from me and I've been thinking about driving round to take a look at them and see what difference a 123 might make. I assumed that with all the electronic gubbins that anything that was used by the 051 wouldn't be needed. I'll follow this thread with interest.

James

[Naj ✝︎]

Hello, James,

The 123 distributor has 6 or 8  16 different curves to choose from. There is a vacuum port and you can choose vac advance (e.g. early 230s) or vac retard (rest of 113s).

Bob,

The 051 and 009 distributors are the same for the US and rest of the world.

My take is that 051s were originally used in production and the 009 is a later supersession to replace worn out 051s.
I also believe 051s were used until end of production  (worldwide) except in the US cars which used 062 and 067 during 1970/71. The 010 supercedes both 062 and 067.

If anybody here knows any different, please tell 

naj

[bpossel]

Hello Martijn,

Just to clarify...  your kit was missing the spring completely?  Your kit didnt even come with the standard short spring?

Just trying to understand what I need to have my USA distributor ask Albert of Albertronics so that I get the correct spring for my 1971 280SL.

Thank you!
Bob 

[wwheeler]

I purchased my 123 from Brooklyn Motoren Worke in Wisconsin. I believe his name was Albert and was very knowledgeable.

According to the instruction sheet provided, there are 16 different advance curves available (1-9 & A-F). I attached the vacuum for my installation (retard) and my curve # is 8. When checking the timing, the number 8 curve duplicated my 051 exactly for a '68 280 SE. The people you purchase the distributor from should be able to give the correct info and if not, contact Albert.
 

[Peter van Es]

On my car, with the emissions control stuff largely removed, the vacuum line is connected to the air intake housing on the OTHER side... i.e. not on the Venturi. The venturi tube is sealed off with some sort of screw.

I'm uploading the 123-Ignitions manual for the correct 123 ignition for your usage.

You can find out more at: http://www.123ignition.nl/

Peter

[Martijn]

Hello Bob,

The mechanic explained to me that the original kit comes with a short spring, but it should be replaced by an extended spring. It is built in the 123ignition, I think. It is not a loose part in the kit. The mechanic only showed me the extended spring. If I remember it correctly, the length is about 1 to 1.5 inch and the diameter about 0.5 inch.

Probably you know that the manufacturer of the 123ignition is a Dutch company. That is why Van Dijk cooperated with 123ignition in the development for the Pagoda version. Van Dijk doesn't understand why 123ignition doesn't supply the kit with this long spring. If you order a 123ignition at Van Dijk's, they switch these springs as a standard procedure. Most people don't know this.

I understand that Peter also has ordered his 123ignition at Van Dijk's. Therefore he probably doesn't know this, because they did the switch for him. I bought it somewhere else, that is the reason why the mechanic noticed this play.

Please contact Van Dijk about this. They are very kind and helpful people.

Martijn

[Peter van Es]

Dear all,

I spoke with Frank van Dijk this morning. Please do NOT contact him about this if you only want to know about this spring. All the information is in this post.

Underneath every distributor is a spring. I've scanned a picture from the Haynes manual and uploaded it here. On Page 95 (Chapter 4, Ignition System), picture 6.11B it shows how to install this spring in the housing into which the distributor subsequently gets installed. On the SLS site, there is a picture too (but no order number) on page 05 (Steuerung, Kette), between part 57 and 58 (see second attachment).

The standard MB spring is about 2.2 cm tall, and about 0.5 cm diameter. Everyone who installs or deals with distributors knows about this spring, and it can be bought from MB and others.

The spring that allows the 123-ignition to work correctly is the same diameter as the original part, but about 4.3 cm tall.

Van Dijk does NOT have a large stock of these springs. They picked a couple of handfuls of them up at a hardware supplier out of a bin. When they run out, they run out. Your best bet in acquiring this spring is to:

• ask the person who supplied your 123-ignition for something like that spring... although, as Martijn said, you don't get it with your 123-ignition
• take your existing spring, go to your local hardware store, and try and find a similar one that is twice as tall

As you can understand, much as Frank van Dijk likes to support all of us, it is a loss making proposition to supply these springs (they are in his catalog on p 13, item number 208-084, "veer onder ontsteking", spring under ignition, at €15) piecemeal. The handling and shipping of these items would kill him. So please try and source it locally first, and then place a large compensation order at the same time as ordering your spring... then he'll forgive you I'm sure 

Peter

[Martijn]

Peter,

Sorry. It was not my intention to cause a lot of work for Van Dijk with this small part. I am glad that you could give this detailed explanation and I am sure it's valuable for many members. Thank you.

Martijn

[Peter van Es]

Martijn,

Don't worry, Frank's OK. He only had a couple of e-mails so far...  I'm just trying to keep our valuable suppliers sane!

Peter

[jameshoward]

Peter,

I'm just trying to keep our valuable suppliers sane!

Hmmm. Not sure I'd agree that this is the job of the customer. Where there's a market for something, there's profit to be made. Valuable suppliers, if really good, would surely find some way to supply an essential part. Those who wouldn't go out of their way to source an essential part and charge a fair market rate would be, what, normal suppliers? There's plenty of those around.

Either you're in the business of supplying cars parts and fixing cars, or you aren't.

JH

PS - this isn't a question; it's just an observation!

[Peter van Es]

James,

Normally, or generally I would agree with you. However, with this item the reality is that many people would ask Frank questions by e-mail, and he would spend time answering them. They would find out that he can supply the part at €15 plus shipping and handling, but that the spring isn't really special: that with a bit of looking around a buyer could probably source a spring locally for much less money.

Frank van Dijk graciously provided, free of charge, all that information. I put it in a post here. I mailed him the link so that he can provide this link when people mail him with the questions. Now thats why Frank is VALUABLE... he didn't try to make a buck, he provided all the knowledge that many 123-ignition suppliers don't even have.

Now tell me, if you ordered this spring from Frank, and paid €25 for it including shipping and handling, and found out you could have sourced it locally for a couple of bucks, would you feel happier with Frank as a supplier ?

That's why I made sure -- as a service to Frank van Dijk -- that our members at least would realise what a drain on Franks time it would be if he had to go about dealing with questions and requests for just that tiny spring. Now I'm sure Frank would be very happy if you ordered the 123-ignition from him, AND the spring...

James, I hope you see my point. We have some excellent professionals on the board (Dan Caron (Dr Benz), Joe Alexander) who also share their knowledge freely. Be generous with your praise of them, and miserly with your questions to them... but do send as much business to them as you can. That's all!

Peter

PS: This isn't an answer... just my justification!

[Ziggy]

Bob, you are right. The 123 has only 1 vacuum port for retard, so your pollution control can not be connected and will not work. After installing, you will have the "euro" version of the distributor.

[bpossel]

Ziggy, did you end of getting one? Lean something new?  Please tell us more...

I have been waiting to update the group on the 123 with my setup until I get it fully installed... I just rec'd my unit on Monday of this week.  I also have finally come to the conclusion (thanks Gernold!) that the 009 in my car is wrong and that a previous owner installed it (replaced my 062) with this 009 so that the earlier Pertronix I could be utilized. 

I also learned from Gernold that the 123 will work in one of 2 ways for my later '71 280sl... 1. with all of my pollution control devices working 100%, 123 vac port connected to the 2-way valve as designed, or 2. with pollution control devices removed, 123 vac port connected directly to the throttle body and the throttle body be replaced with a "euro" spec version (I am sure there is a formal name, part #,... for this throttle body???).

I should be able to report on my 123 setup by this weekend....
Bob 

[Naj ✝︎]

Bob,
I think there is a way you can use your current throttle body, and that is to still use the vacuum control valve, but  operated by the switch on the throttle valve body. At idling, the vacuum valve would open and retard the timing. When you open the throttle, the vacuum valve relay would switch off and cut off the vacuum.

naj